Consent

[LittleOceans]

I know this is a highly controversial topic. I am not trying to sway anyone's opinion. It is just something to consider and a dream of what I want the world to look like. I understand that the world is not this way and that this is idealistic. I am an idealist and I do not deal with the public for this reason. 

So, I was watching a YouTube video made by a couple in the community, and public consent came up as a discussion point.

This got me thinking: what does that even mean? If you are willing to go out in public, aren't you giving your consent by walking out your front door?

Should we conform to abide by these rules that society has deemed appropriate? There is the consensus that without rules, there would be anarchy. When do rules become too much of an average? Why must we all be pretty boxes with neatly tied bows? Why can't an adult drinking from a sippy cup be the norm? Who gets to decide normal?

Now I know my own opinion on this topic. When I go out in public, I dress in graphic hoodies, piggy tails, braids, or my mom bun because I am too tired for the effort. I bring Wolfie in my Stitch backpack unless I am afraid, I will lose him because I am ditzy that day. I sit him on my lap and buckle him up because I do not want him to get hurt riding in the car. My consent to society's standards makes me feel wrong when I prefer sippy cups. When I suck on my thumb to comfort myself and fall asleep easier. When I wet the bed because I went to bed in little space. I feel bad because I cannot run in and out of Walmart; I get lost because I see something shiny. I feel bad going down the toy section: I am too old for the pure wonder and joy I experience. All these thoughts are not my standards; they are not my feelings. How can they be when I enjoy all these aspects of who I am? I feel this way because society has deemed it wrong, so I must be wrong. Right?

 

Anyway, my point is this: Public consent should not have to be for select people: communities such as LGBTQ+, BDSM, CGL, Race, Gender, etcetera. I could go on forever with all the different communities.

My question is: What does public consent look like to you, and are you giving that consent by walking out your front door? 

[Little kaiya]

Public consent is and has always been a heated discussion. I will start by saying that grouping kink like BDSM with identity factors like race, sexual orientation and gender identity always causes me to cringe.

Publicly practicing BDSM in front of non-consenting folks is nowhere close to the same or even similar as having a specific identity factor like those named above. When those parallels are drawn it sets the stage for some seriously inaccurate comparisons.

When it comes to public consent I personally frame it this way for myself, if it's sexual then it stays in private as nobody else needs to be part of it but myself and my partners.

When it comes to nonsexual things like a lot of the little behaviour you described you can do it but will certainly get looks and comments. Did those people consent or need to consent, well, that's where it gets a bit more murky. Whether we like it or not there are people for whom DDlg and CGl is sexual. To an outsider they have no way of knowing whether you drinking from a sippy cup is age regression or kink related. So to me, I wouldn't be doing it in public view as I do think there should be consent from other parties when that line between sexual and nonsexual is blurry.

[Kittyara207]

I was on a plane with pig tails, pink polish, pink sweater, lollipops.  Apple juice and cookies.  Coloring books and crayons.   I even put my thumb partially in my mouth.  I am sure my luggage with a bigger packs of crayons.  And stickers all over my old laptop of My Little Pony and Carebears.  They went through my coloring pages as well.  My behavior a little hyper and childlike.  

At work.  My hyper attitude, stuffed animals, and toys I have where patients and coworkers can see it.  My new bandaids I bought just for work.  Paw Patrol and Barbie I will not hide it.  Even my laptop case has stuffies little one on it.  Babydoll pink purse with stuffies on it.  But no pig tails at work too many creepy people already are drawn to me.   I will not hide who I am but I will not go around screaming it.  I honestly don't think it'd surprise most of my coworkers...except maybe my boss would not be 100% great with it.  I do love having a secret no one else knows.  

I think its up to each person to make their own decision.  My family and friends just call me unique and childlike.  Any kids that are patients or my kids friends think I am more fun than other adults.  And I can relate well to them.  My opinion consent each time we go into public technically we are putting ourselves out there whether its stepping out the front door or online.  Its public domain so user beware.  Anyone who really wanted to to hack into any site or see your purchase history.  Privacy in a world so connected to the internet is only a thing...until its not.  Each time we are on this site even if someone wanted to see where we were they could. 

[shadowrider]

 If you are not being sexual or shoving things in people's faces I think you can enjoy more freedom than it sounds like you currently let yourself. 

 By all means go down the toy aisle ! First of all no one cares why you are looking at toys. It could be you need a gift for someone or maybe you are a collector. Let people look at me funny. I'm a grown man with a beard and I still stop and look for certain hot wheels that I know are collectible. I buy stuffies as gifts and have never been looked at with a side eye, and honestly don't care if I do get judged. I may or may not push the buttons on those toys that say "Try Me" just to see what they do. It's fun and even adults are allowed to have fun. 

 Sippy cups in public. They make tumblers with fold down nozzles that are nothing more than a spill proof sippy cup. People use them daily in gyms all across the world and no ones thinks "wow that looks like a kids sippy cup". And now that everyone and their momma has a cricut you see adults carrying tumblers with disney princesses and all kinds of cute things on them. No one bats an eye at them so buy one and enjoy your drink. And if you get one that is not clear no one knows if you have a coffee addiction or are enjoying a capri sun or your favorite juice box.

 Sadly you may need to watch how excited you get over toys and things, unless you don't care if people look at you. My opinion is I will probably never see them again so let them think what they want. I personally would hope people have more pressing issues in life than to worry about me digging through rows of hot wheels or model cars or picking out stuffies for gifts. I actually get more looks at the fabric store when I am buying project materials than I do anywhere else. And again, who cares. People are judgmental and that's on them.

My dad always said "As long as they are talking about me they are leaving everyone else alone, so let them talk".

Enjoy life and spread joy, we are only here for a little while.

[LittleOceans]

1 minute ago, gigisweetheart said:

Well, it’s a little complicated. We do have to consider children because they are unable to consent to adult things. Then we would all have to agree that some little behaviour is not a kink/sexual, or a maladaptive coping mechanism. And we would have to consider social responsibility. I know we all like our freedoms, but at some point we do have to think of the community as a whole.

I get what you’re saying though. Many people signal to the outside world their preferences in the bedroom - including straight, vanilla people. It does seem like a double standard, especially considering a lot of littles don’t experience little space with a partner or as a sexual thing. No one in the outside world would be forced to engage with me in a sexual context if I were to be little in public. They might not like what I’m signalling but I don’t feel comfortable with plenty of types of self-expression that I have to just accept (ie people flaunting their camo/hunting regalia. I think it’s ethically disgusting but that’s my problem entirely.) 

Thank you for this insight! 

Children are always under my umbrella of protection, and I always forget that some mean children harm. I can't even conceive thoughts of harm to children, so I tend to give this oversight, hehe 😅

I only meant some rules, not all rules, whoops. I feel that once some rules are questioned, then others take the extreme road versus having an adult conversation and considering other points. 

18 minutes ago, gigisweetheart said:

I forgot to clarify that sometimes ddlg is most definitely just a kink and purely a sexual thing so that would be problematic for some people. People should have whatever sexual preference is natural to them but being actively sexual in public is another matter. I sometimes don’t clarify things too well. 😅

I think most Public Displays of Affection are behind closed doors only, so for me, there are no sexual acts whatsoever in public. I love to handhold, though, and head kisses and cuddles. 

42 minutes ago, Little kaiya said:

Public consent is and has always been a heated discussion. I will start by saying that grouping kink like BDSM with identity factors like race, sexual orientation and gender identity always causes me to cringe.

Publicly practicing BDSM in front of non-consenting folks is nowhere close to the same or even similar as having a specific identity factor like those named above. When those parallels are drawn it sets the stage for some seriously inaccurate comparisons.

When it comes to public consent I personally frame it this way for myself, if it's sexual then it stays in private as nobody else needs to be part of it but myself and my partners.

When it comes to nonsexual things like a lot of the little behaviour you described you can do it but will certainly get looks and comments. Did those people consent or need to consent, well, that's where it gets a bit more murky. Whether we like it or not there are people for whom DDlg and CGl is sexual. To an outsider they have no way of knowing whether you drinking from a sippy cup is age regression or kink related. So to me, I wouldn't be doing it in public view as I do think there should be consent from other parties when that line between sexual and nonsexual is blurry.

Thank you so much for your reply! 

I want others' Points Of View, and I appreciate you taking the time to give me yours! I am trying to understand societal views and why they are the way they are. Your reply was insightful!

[LittleOceans]

1 hour ago, Kittyara207 said:

I was on a plane with pig tails, pink polish, pink sweater, lollipops.  Apple juice and cookies.  Coloring books and crayons.   I even put my thumb partially in my mouth.  I am sure my luggage with a bigger packs of crayons.  And stickers all over my old laptop of My Little Pony and Carebears.  They went through my coloring pages as well.  My behavior a little hyper and childlike.  

At work.  My hyper attitude, stuffed animals, and toys I have where patients and coworkers can see it.  My new bandaids I bought just for work.  Paw Patrol and Barbie I will not hide it.  Even my laptop case has stuffies little one on it.  Babydoll pink purse with stuffies on it.  But no pig tails at work too many creepy people already are drawn to me.   I will not hide who I am but I will not go around screaming it.  I honestly don't think it'd surprise most of my coworkers...except maybe my boss would not be 100% great with it.  I do love having a secret no one else knows.  

I think its up to each person to make their own decision.  My family and friends just call me unique and childlike.  Any kids that are patients or my kids friends think I am more fun than other adults.  And I can relate well to them.  My opinion consent each time we go into public technically we are putting ourselves out there whether its stepping out the front door or online.  Its public domain so user beware.  Anyone who really wanted to to hack into any site or see your purchase history.  Privacy in a world so connected to the internet is only a thing...until its not.  Each time we are on this site even if someone wanted to see where we were they could. 

WOO, Go Kitty! 

Thank you for the reply and the insight!

55 minutes ago, shadowrider said:

 If you are not being sexual or shoving things in people's faces I think you can enjoy more freedom than it sounds like you currently let yourself. 

 By all means go down the toy aisle ! First of all no one cares why you are looking at toys. It could be you need a gift for someone or maybe you are a collector. Let people look at me funny. I'm a grown man with a beard and I still stop and look for certain hot wheels that I know are collectible. I buy stuffies as gifts and have never been looked at with a side eye, and honestly don't care if I do get judged. I may or may not push the buttons on those toys that say "Try Me" just to see what they do. It's fun and even adults are allowed to have fun. 

 Sippy cups in public. They make tumblers with fold down nozzles that are nothing more than a spill proof sippy cup. People use them daily in gyms all across the world and no ones thinks "wow that looks like a kids sippy cup". And now that everyone and their momma has a cricut you see adults carrying tumblers with disney princesses and all kinds of cute things on them. No one bats an eye at them so buy one and enjoy your drink. And if you get one that is not clear no one knows if you have a coffee addiction or are enjoying a capri sun or your favorite juice box.

 Sadly you may need to watch how excited you get over toys and things, unless you don't care if people look at you. My opinion is I will probably never see them again so let them think what they want. I personally would hope people have more pressing issues in life than to worry about me digging through rows of hot wheels or model cars or picking out stuffies for gifts. I actually get more looks at the fabric store when I am buying project materials than I do anywhere else. And again, who cares. People are judgmental and that's on them.

My dad always said "As long as they are talking about me they are leaving everyone else alone, so let them talk".

Enjoy life and spread joy, we are only here for a little while.

Funny, you use the Tumbler as an example because that is what I use! I will plop down in the store and play with the toys.

The examples I gave were how I felt when I realized this part of my identity. I was made to feel so wrong and gross for what I needed. It took a couple of years, but once I stopped caring how I was seen, I realized that as long as I was comfortable, being true to myself, and not harming anyone else, I wasn't doing anything wrong.

Thank you so much for your reply and insight!

[LittleOceans]

@gigisweetheart,  I love that you replied again! This is what I was hoping for! I wanted to have a thought-inducing conversation! All Opinions and outloud thoughts are welcome!

[littlespace_cadet]

This is such an interesting topic and thread, thanks for posting it, and for all the replies! 

I think a lot of how we are seen in public and how that relates to consent is often down to intent, social framing, and behavior. For instance, I see a lot of people wearing collars, especially the kind with the heart-shaped rings, that aren't into D/s relationships at all. It's just a fashion statement for them. And, having been a traveler in punk, goth, and metal subcultures, plenty of those people wear BDSM gear as a fashion statement who aren't really into the scene at all. A lot of kink markers and gear have bled into the general public, and no one really bats an eye or thinks of it as a consent matter. The collar is framed as a fashion statement and not much more. Not to say people in subcultures don't get side-eyed or treated poorly by some (jerky, judgmental) people.

In the same way, little stuff is also part of the general public. Before I started exploring CG/l, I already collected toys and had a fashion sense that was described as "whimsical." I would carry cute Loungefly bags with Disney characters, wear things with cute prints, color my hair pastel colors - and I didn't think anything of it. I'm more of a middle, so I've never been interested in using a bottle or anything, but my travel cups and even my home kitchen stuff is cute. When I got my own place, I bought dishes with little sections in them. I didn't even think of it in a kinky way, and the only comments I ever got from guests were, "Where did you get these, I want some too!" Sure, some people might roll their eyes or call me names like "kidult," but mostly it was chalked up to quirkiness.

I think where things can get hazy and people can feel uncomfortable is mostly down to our behaviors. Like, it's one thing to wear a collar out in public. It's another thing to be led around on a leash out in public, no matter how benign your actions are while you are attached to it. In the same way, going on a date to Build-a-Bear and being quietly affectionate with a caregiver can look like a cute date (and it is). But calling your caregiver "Mommy" or "Daddy" and speaking in baby talk can make people uncomfortable.

I think for littles it's a bit harder because the CG/l dynamic can bring up some traumatic things for some people. I've stumbled on a lot of tiktoks and the like from the "age regression" community, and a lot of those people use the same sort of gear and comfort items we do, but for very different reasons. Even the idea of this being connected to kink is disturbing to them. I've seen people in the wider BDSM community, even people with quite hard kinks, be very disturbed by just a little asking them for help with their juice box or something. A lot of people in BDSM are working through some heavy stuff, and sometimes, as innocent as we may be, our presence can make them feel uncomfortable. That's not necessarily our fault, but it's something to be aware of.

I'm sorry this was such a long reply! I have a lot of thoughts because I'm new to exploring and accepting this side of me. I don't even have a caregiver and am not even sure if I want one at this point, I'm kind of a Pippi Longstocking type of middle. I also don't feel like I dissociate as a middle, so it's easy enough for me to compartmentalize and blend in. It may be much more difficult or undesirable for others.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion and food for thought.

[LittleOceans]

@littlespace_cadet I want to reply to this more in-depth, and I will. I don't have the words today, but they will come to me eventually. You have opened my eyes to some excellent points, and I will be chewing on them for a bit. Thank you so much for your reply!

[LittleOceans]

On 11/24/2023 at 9:29 AM, littlespace_cadet said:

This is such an interesting topic and thread, thanks for posting it, and for all the replies! 

I think a lot of how we are seen in public and how that relates to consent is often down to intent, social framing, and behavior. For instance, I see a lot of people wearing collars, especially the kind with the heart-shaped rings, that aren't into D/s relationships at all. It's just a fashion statement for them. And, having been a traveler in punk, goth, and metal subcultures, plenty of those people wear BDSM gear as a fashion statement who aren't really into the scene at all. A lot of kink markers and gear have bled into the general public, and no one really bats an eye or thinks of it as a consent matter. The collar is framed as a fashion statement and not much more. Not to say people in subcultures don't get side-eyed or treated poorly by some (jerky, judgmental) people.

In the same way, little stuff is also part of the general public. Before I started exploring CG/l, I already collected toys and had a fashion sense that was described as "whimsical." I would carry cute Loungefly bags with Disney characters, wear things with cute prints, color my hair pastel colors - and I didn't think anything of it. I'm more of a middle, so I've never been interested in using a bottle or anything, but my travel cups and even my home kitchen stuff is cute. When I got my own place, I bought dishes with little sections in them. I didn't even think of it in a kinky way, and the only comments I ever got from guests were, "Where did you get these, I want some too!" Sure, some people might roll their eyes or call me names like "kidult," but mostly it was chalked up to quirkiness.

I think where things can get hazy and people can feel uncomfortable is mostly down to our behaviors. Like, it's one thing to wear a collar out in public. It's another thing to be led around on a leash out in public, no matter how benign your actions are while you are attached to it. In the same way, going on a date to Build-a-Bear and being quietly affectionate with a caregiver can look like a cute date (and it is). But calling your caregiver "Mommy" or "Daddy" and speaking in baby talk can make people uncomfortable.

I think for littles it's a bit harder because the CG/l dynamic can bring up some traumatic things for some people. I've stumbled on a lot of tiktoks and the like from the "age regression" community, and a lot of those people use the same sort of gear and comfort items we do, but for very different reasons. Even the idea of this being connected to kink is disturbing to them. I've seen people in the wider BDSM community, even people with quite hard kinks, be very disturbed by just a little asking them for help with their juice box or something. A lot of people in BDSM are working through some heavy stuff, and sometimes, as innocent as we may be, our presence can make them feel uncomfortable. That's not necessarily our fault, but it's something to be aware of.

I'm sorry this was such a long reply! I have a lot of thoughts because I'm new to exploring and accepting this side of me. I don't even have a caregiver and am not even sure if I want one at this point, I'm kind of a Pippi Longstocking type of middle. I also don't feel like I dissociate as a middle, so it's easy enough for me to compartmentalize and blend in. It may be much more difficult or undesirable for others.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion and food for thought.

I think I have one question. Is it our responsibility to make everyone else feel comfortable and okay in public? 
 

I personally feel I am only ever responsible for myself. I will never go out of my way to make someone uncomfortable or press my views on someone else, but if I’m minding my own business I don’t need to worry about others judgements and yet I still do. Society conditioning is wrong in giving me the right to judge what is right for someone to wear or their body shape or their food choices or the millions of judgments that humans place on other humans. I have the right to my opinion, but I don’t have the right to place that on someone else. It’s all so confusing and contradictory and why in the world do people want to interact with others when there are too many rules. 
 

I have gone on rambling. If you read all of this Thank you for getting this far. 

[CareFae]

58 minutes ago, LittleOceans said:

I think I have one question. Is it our responsibility to make everyone else feel comfortable and okay in public? 
 

I personally feel I am only ever responsible for myself. I will never go out of my way to make someone uncomfortable or press my views on someone else, but if I’m minding my own business I don’t need to worry about others judgements and yet I still do. Society conditioning is wrong in giving me the right to judge what is right for someone to wear or their body shape or their food choices or the millions of judgments that humans place on other humans. I have the right to my opinion, but I don’t have the right to place that on someone else. It’s all so confusing and contradictory and why in the world do people want to interact with others when there are too many rules. 
 

I have gone on rambling. If you read all of this Thank you for getting this far. 

Personally, I think a lot of people are confusing the term "triggered" with the word "offended". Given that I don't think you can make everyone comfortable with really anything, I don't think it's your responsibility. But I think the line that people need to find is what could be offensive to someone and what could trigger someone.

Generally speaking, an adult dressed in a Princess themed sweatshirt isn't going to trigger anyone. They might be offended and think you need to "grow up", but they're not going to have a traumatic flashback. People can get offended by really anything: short dresses, "opposite gender" clothing, someone just being overweight. You can't stop that from happening, so don't bother trying. Wear clothing that makes you happy.

But with triggers, that's a different beast. Personally, if I feel there's even a moderate chance that someone could be triggered by what I am wearing, I shouldn't wear it. But there are people who use a higher threshold, like mentioned above: there are some people who wear collars for the style, for the fashion statement, as if it's just a necklace. Personally, I think that this is pushing it could very easily result in someone reliving a traumatic incident. Same goes for harnesses, if you ask me.

I think there's just the general understanding that you shouldn't try to actively cause harm. Use a filter in public and some empathy for trauma survivors, but I don't think there's a "perfect" code to live by.

[LittleOceans]

33 minutes ago, CareFae said:

Personally, I think a lot of people are confusing the term "triggered" with the word "offended". Given that I don't think you can make everyone comfortable with really anything, I don't think it's your responsibility. But I think the line that people need to find is what could be offensive to someone and what could trigger someone.

Generally speaking, an adult dressed in a Princess themed sweatshirt isn't going to trigger anyone. They might be offended and think you need to "grow up", but they're not going to have a traumatic flashback. People can get offended by really anything: short dresses, "opposite gender" clothing, someone just being overweight. You can't stop that from happening, so don't bother trying. Wear clothing that makes you happy.

But with triggers, that's a different beast. Personally, if I feel there's even a moderate chance that someone could be triggered by what I am wearing, I shouldn't wear it. But there are people who use a higher threshold, like mentioned above: there are some people who wear collars for the style, for the fashion statement, as if it's just a necklace. Personally, I think that this is pushing it could very easily result in someone reliving a traumatic incident. Same goes for harnesses, if you ask me.

I think there's just the general understanding that you shouldn't try to actively cause harm. Use a filter in public and some empathy for trauma survivors, but I don't think there's a "perfect" code to live by.

I greatly appreciate the insight into the difference I was seeing but not understanding between these two words. That is it! I never want to harm someone unconsciously. I have no way of knowing someone's trauma, so the best that I can do is if it has the potential of triggering me, then I best not do it. On the other hand, does that then make me responsible for accommodating everyone's trauma? Or are they not at that point consenting to be triggered by walking out their door without trying to look at and heal their trauma?

[CareFae]

8 minutes ago, LittleOceans said:

I greatly appreciate the insight into the difference I was seeing but not understanding between these two words. That is it! I never want to harm someone unconsciously. I have no way of knowing someone's trauma, so the best that I can do is if it has the potential of triggering me, then I best not do it. On the other hand, does that then make me responsible for accommodating everyone's trauma? Or are they not at that point consenting to be triggered by walking out their door without trying to look at and heal their trauma?

TW: abuse/trauma

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The only person ever responsible for their triggers is the person being triggered. (Unless they've entered into a consented agreement with someone else like in CGL, where the CG might help in removing and recovering from triggers).

There's no way to accommodate for every kind of trauma. Just as you can't go without offending everyone, you can't go without triggering people. I know people who are traumatized by growing up in religious cults, they were forced to wear very modest clothing and punished for wearing anything revealing. Depending on where they are in their healing journey, they might be triggered by revealing clothes or they might be triggered by fully modest clothing. And there is no possible way for you to know, meaning you can't prepare for it really.

Speaking as a healing person, we traumatized people as a group tend to avoid places that could trigger us. If we were to have issues surrounding a car accident, we aren't likely to be found at a NASCAR race, you know? But I think the difference is that people, even traumatized people, should be able to go into a grocery store for their food, without being sent into a spiral. And while there is no way to accommodate for everyone, we can all be smart about the likelihood of our actions negatively affecting someone else.

Personally, I think there's a higher likelihood of someone being triggered by a visible collar than they are to be triggered by drinking from a Disney cup. And I think every person has to set a threshold for what they're willing to do in public, and how likely they might affect someone. Again, it's no one's responsibility but the individual, but there seems to be a general consensus that we try not to cause those kinds of issues for others.

So to simplify my own general rules, generally if what you are doing is for sexual purposes, you probably shouldn't do it in public, unless it's the kind of space where people are coming there consenting to it. If you're doing it and it might trigger someone, use discretion. If you're doing something that likely won't trigger anyone but will probably offend people, let them be offended.

[GrampyP]

This all reminds me of a quote I came across, I'll paraphrase it.

"If someone hurts (triggers or offends) our feelings, it's because we expected too much from them." JMH.

In the first place, their behavior might be wrong, do they need to be aware of their offense or taught a lesson?

In the second place, is our reaction indicative of past trauma, unfinished healing, or just being prudish, ignorant or unthinking?

We are only responsible for our own actions and reactions which might indicate their "extreme" behavior but also teach us something about us.

This interesting discussion (thank you all), points out that most people have a sense of what is or isn't acceptable to people we might meet either in passing or more intimately. The problem comes from unexpected people or "out of the ordinary" encounters. We usually err on the side of caution, the lowest common denominator or not wanting to fight a battle justifying personal choices.

Unfortunately, society, religions, etc. have too often dictated levels of acceptability, hence the ignorance of some actions or reactions. Unreasoned or inappropriate attitudes should be re-taught, ideally. But is it or is there the time for education?

Sometimes we are more in a mood to push out on boundaries. Go for it if you're in the mood for it, just keep in mind the possible repercussions and be gentle.