Punishment: Necessary?

[MrBonesWildRide]

Be forewarned this is long winded, I apologize.

 

So I've had this conversation in chat and after going over Teddy/Bunny's contract post, I'm trying to think of the purpose behind punishment. 

 

Not to single them out, but including my own contract that I have had, I can't think of a strong reason behind punishment. Many people who have heard my own opinion about this may be familiar, but here's my thoughts behind it:

 

I feel like my regard for punishment does not stem from a pacifist idea. I feel like punishment (in the context of a power dynamic relationship such as DDlg) is not as necessary as many would rush to uphold. I feel as though punishment is negative reinforcement that does not necessarily enforce anything and is usually used in the hands of the wrong crowd as a form of abuse within the confines of the power of the dynamic. Obviously I am not implying that everyone who uses punishment is an abuser, or that punishment has no place in a power dynamic, but I feel as though the weight of punishment should definitely be called into question.

 

Let me take, for example, one of my past relationships contracts: 

 

 

Punishment Procedure:

 

1) Daddy and Little One will make time for punishment

2) Daddy will provide reason for the punishment about to be inflicted

3) Disobedience will be taken seriously, and Daddy holds the right to decide the severity of the punishment for each action

4) ONLY Daddy will enforce punishments

5) Daddy will then comfort His Little One and take necessary steps to build her back up afterwards

 

This was a base contract, something that would be established later as something larger. It was also left entirely open ended because I felt like I could not assign punishments to certain things. How could I enforce something such as bedtime on someone who is in college? While there is mutual respect, there is also a threshold and people lacking the 24/7 power play dynamic cannot hope to keep these type of strict rules in place without caving.

 

So then that questions punishment and the severity of it. Punishment isn't supposed to be good. Spanking, lines, lectures, etc. are all negative things. They are supposed to be a reaction to an action. But what does this reaction actually enforce? Obedience. It doesn't teach a lesson, it is a correction to move someone back in line, but does not reinforce the positive behavior. Often times, there may be a little (on this forum or otherwise) discussing how they might be potentially be breaking their partner's rules. Sometimes these same people will come back and explain how they were punished for not following their partner's rules. Smaller still, are those that will continue to do so despite the rules being in place. The punishment is clearly not an effective reaction to the disobedience, but it calls into question a larger issue: Communication.

 

Lectures, in my personal opinion (as a novice Daddy), are one of the most effective forms of punishment. Why? Because they engage a conversation. The entire reason one would break a rule is twofold: They did not understand the rule, or they willfully disobeyed. There is no inbetween. You purposefully break speeding laws while driving, you may not know about the law about how it is illegal to gargle in some parts of Louisiana (US). The same too can be said about the rules established in a relationship. You willfully break your bedtime (purposefully or due to circumstance), you may forget that certain vocabulary words are not accepted, etc.  A lecture reinforces why the rules are important and what they mean to you as the Daddy or Dominant. You can ask what they may have been thinking at the time or why the rules were broken, which opens up the reason behind the failure to follow the rules. But it all comes down to communicating. 

 

Communication is the key to relationships, on the level of compatibility. If you aren't communicating, you aren't going to succeed. If you are constantly punishing, you are not effectively working the relationship and are actually revealing the flaw of the relationship. 

 

If you have to punish your partner, think about the reason why. Did they forget the rules? Would reinforcing a positive behavior be better than punishing their forgetting? Would communicating the rule better and how to effectively deal with future similar situations be better than effectively commanding obedience?

 

What about if they willfully break the rules? Is the rule an effective means of limitation if your partner has broken the rule? Are they doing it to spite you (and if so, what does that say about your relationship?) or because they don't like the rule? Would punishing their behavior reinforce that you don't want this to continue, or would reexamining the rule be a better route?

 

_____________

 

Questions for those who want to comment on this:

 

What is your perspective on rules and punishment?

Are punishments an effective way of reacting to a breaking of rules? 

What type of punishments would effectively stop rule breaking? Why is that punishment effective and how does it prevent further rule breaking?

[Guest buddhagirl]

I think this is a personal issue and varies with the couple in the relationship. I understand your points and think they are logical for you. I agree (and this is just from my perspective) that punishment is not always the most effective way to get the good behavior you hope for from your little one. Daddy does lots of things to help me be the girl I want to be for him, including talking about underlying reasons I may be misbehaving, lecturing, warnings and rewards for positive behavior or progress on a trouble area. I now earn rewards for following some rules instead of just getting punished for breaking rules. There is a circumstance for me, though, that greatly benefits from Daddy's punishment. Sometimes I get scared that I'm alone like I used to be, that Daddy doesn't really care about me enough, that I'm not worth fighting for. I know this is irrational, and it comes from childhood abandonment, but when I feel like this I sometimes act out - push Daddy away, try to run away, blatantly break rules even though I don't want to. The only thing that makes me feel really loved and cared about when I feel like this is Daddy being very strong and disciplining me. Knowing I'm worth the time and effort to put boundaries around, that he'll fight to keep me his, etc., calms me down and makes me feel loved, safe and secure. His punishments when I feel like this have actually helped me heal old wounds and have grown our trust and intimacy. So, I think that punishment may play a different role for different couples at different times. I leave it to each couple to decide what brings them the most happiness, love and intimacy.

[BeautifulBabygirl]

Some littles get off on the spankings. My daddy, talks to me, tells me why he is mad, and what I did wrong. I would prefer to get spanked. However, he thinks that talking to me is the best way. He RARELY spanks me. But, that is his personal choice...

[LB Chris]

Personally, talking at length about something I just did simply gets me in a more stressful situation cos can't follow it so he just explains simply why it wasn't right and then gets me over his knee for a spanking which is less stressful and goes in better. Given we have rules, talk through the difficulties I have and work on goals to help deal with them that have rewards too, it is working as my attitude and behaviour is improving from when we first got together.

[Guest Teddy]

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[MrBonesWildRide]

Some littles get off on the spankings. My daddy, talks to me, tells me why he is mad, and what I did wrong. I would prefer to get spanked. However, he thinks that talking to me is the best way. He RARELY spanks me. But, that is his personal choice...

 

If a little gets off on a punishment spanking then a punishment spanking is 100% the wrong choice and is not effective. You are not supposed to enjoy a punishment.

 

when I feel like this I sometimes act out - push Daddy away, try to run away, blatantly break rules even though I don't want to. The only thing that makes me feel really loved and cared about when I feel like this is Daddy being very strong and disciplining me.

So basically you are lashing out and intentionally breaking rules, which mean that you are not staying within the confines of the rules intentionally to prove a larger point. Which means that, to you, punishment is not actually correcting your action but showing he cares. Which is basically the opposite of what a punishment should be...? Now obviously you didn't outright say spanking. But what if your punishment was something less one on one like a timeout, like loss of privileges, like writing lines? Your partner clearly is punishing you but I wouldn't think that there would be any reason those type of punishments would draw you in. If your reply to his is that the act of punishing you draws you closer: Why not simply communicate? You are attempting to indirectly acquire care from your partner by intentionally breaking rules of the dynamic rather than directly communicating with your partner. 

 

However, I have found that while punishment alone can be relatively ineffective, a system that both punishes for rule breaking and rewards for good behavior and rule following reinforces the idea that one is good and the other is bad.

 

I think this is the strongest case for a punishment system is its accompaniment by rewards. The rewards are corrective while the punishment is disciplinary. 

[Guest ( ಡ ͜ ʖ ಡ ) MrGentle]

If you take traditional labels out of it for a moment a reward and a punishment CAN be the same thing when humiliation/embarrassment are involved, hence the term funishment. You can use edging which is fun, as a punishment if it isn't followed to completion or forced orgasms when she's sensitive. They're both punishments, but they're pleasurable to a degree. When we're punished as children we know we did wrong, so in a way, while we hate being punished, we appreciate that someone cares about us enough to set us straight. I view the DD/lg reward/punishments/funishments the same way. I know she'll appreciate I care enough to correct her and help her and as a "reward" for accepting the recognition of needing correction the punishment is made more palatable by making it more adult themed. Different strokes for different folks.

[ziva vlad's kitten]

i find this very intriguing, i never really thought about what DD/lg would look like without punishments before.

What would you do if you're a little was being disrespectful without a punishment dynamic?

[MrBonesWildRide]

i find this very intriguing, i never really thought about what DD/lg would look like without punishments before.

What would you do if you're a little was being disrespectful without a punishment dynamic?

Theoretically it would be agreed upon that there would be no disrespect intentionally because disrespect goes beyond the dynamic and into the relationship aspect.

 

If anything it would be communicated and there would have to be a conversation.

[Beckie]

Okay so here's the thing: with me, I don't know if I would respond well to writing lines. Or other mental stuff like a time out. While I like spankings, I've had daddies say they would paddle me which isn't too appealing. I think I would respond better from a physical punishment that isn't spanking. Something like kneeling in like rice would cause enough pain for me to remember and at the same time provide time for me to reflect.

But then again, I rarely lash out. I recently lost it with some guy I was talking to because he kept pushing me but I was in the wrong, he did threaten to paddle me but then he realized that that wasn't really the answer and I needed help and yeah. But I guess what I'm trying to say is that if I do ever lash out on my daddy, I'd hope that I could have a punishment that combines both mental and physical aspects so that I can actually learn and not just move on satisfied in the pain.

[Guest Foffy]

If a good sub is bad, the fact that they were bad will be punishment enough. Punishment from the Dom is external validation. Through the Dom's acceptance, the sub also accepts and learns. Accelerant, not driving force.

 

The good sub understands that what she's done is wrong, and assuming the rules are correct and agreed upon, feels negatively towards herself and dreads the punishment. Those feelings come together. The punishment (and aftercare) comes and goes and shepherds those feelings with it.

 

If a sub does not feel bad when she breaks rules then she doesn't care or your rules are ineffective.

 

Punishment as a form of kink or for "being bad on purpose" is irrelevant.

[Guest Vexe]

Punishment is typically regarded as an inferior motivator for people in regular relationships, although admittedly this is mostly studied in actual familes.  However what you may be missing from this equation is the secondary effects.  For some people there is no other "excuse" for impact play, or some may enjoy the brat dynamic of pushing limits and receiving punishment, there are some who enjoy or require the affirmation of being disciplined, and of course it's also a great reinforcement for little space.

 

The usefulness of punishment alone as simply a training implement is highly questionable.  As such I tend not to bring much into any D/s dynamic.  As a fellow sadist I don't need any other reasons than enjoyment to engage in many things that others would consider strictly for punishment, but I've noticed that sadism is an exception and not the norm in many DD/lg dynamics.

 

Like you, I much prefer positive reinforcement of the behaviours I am trying to encourage, as well as continual dialogue in order to accomplish training goals.  However once the secondary effects are analyzed in any given DD/lg dynamic, I, like you, may find myself doling out punishment in what becomes a very positive and reinforcing experience.

[The Perennial Princess]

This is a difficult topic because I think it truly depends upon the individuals involved and their distinct personality types. Some daddy doms prefer positive reinforcement and nurture and some littles strive for exemplary behavior in all ways. Other daddies prefer to be more strict and disciplinary, other littles, more bratty and desirous of "taming." I fall into the former category. When I first began my relationship, I definitely preferred to test boundaries and my papa bear. In many aspects it was my way of introducing us to the dynamic. I wanted to encourage that protective, mentor/parental figure mentality in my papa bear and thus misbehaved and teased him as a means to see whether or not his innate personality was receptive to being a papa bear.

 

As time went on, and we likewise developed a more full circle relationship and evolved as individuals, I embraced the side of myself that strives for perfection. I seek to please papa bear in all aspects so why would I misbehave? I try my very best to do all that I can to make us both happy. Hurting him hurts me tenfold. (And vice versa.) I swoon at his slightest look of pleasure, recoil at his slightest grimace. This is something that I think many DDLG relationships try to incorporate into the dynamic though fail to at a genuine level due to disparate personality types. if it occurs naturally in a little, and in a papa bear, (goodness knows papa bears need to TRULY love to spoil, nurture, protect, and tend their baby) then it seems to perhaps change the relations between the two individuals and how they respond to one another.

 

My natural desire to please is appreciated by papa bear and he likewise, always uses communication, positive reinforcement, and praise as a means to show his thanks and to encourage good behaviors. I don't think he would wish to punish me because 1.) I have now become his delicate flower that needs to be tended 2.) he wishes to protect me from all bad things and 3.) he respects the way I try so hard and feels that I am always doing as much as one human being can to achieve goodness.  So, he could not punish me in that way. He prefers to spoil, redirect through dialogue, and show me unconditional love on a daily basis so I do not feel the need to act out for attention or otherwise. I appreciate this so I try even harder not to do so. It's a beautiful cycle. 

 

Of course, I'm a human being, and I make mistakes but most of my mistakes are just that, human, and do not need correcting in the eyes of my papa bear. I also try to "self-correct." I believe that one should not merely be taught a lesson or vow to not do something again due to said lesson but should actively work towards being better overall. I like to spoil papa bear with a special dinner, a note, a card, a journal entry, a cute picture, or that package of boxers that he really needs when I make a mistake. The joy that lights up his face when he receives said gifts makes me want to be good more than any spanking would.

 

However, as stated, these are just innate facets of my personality that my papa bear brings out in me. Likewise, those paternal, understanding, affectionate, and compassionate qualities are what I arouse in my papa bear. It's a simple reaction between two similar, meshing entities who desire to transform one another through purity and make the other better. We did not start our relationship with the explicit intention of being DDLG. It just became a part of who we are as people, as soul mates, as best friends. I think those elements change things as well in some ways. As for the sexual aspect, well, I like to be spanked on occasion but it's not a priority for me or my papa bear. It's just not important. We do it on a more playful basis. Papa bear prefers to be more loving and tender during intimacy and it reflects the changes that have occurred in our overall dynamic.

 

I think far too many "daddy doms" misconstrue what it means to be one and perpetuate it as a sexual fetish and kink. This is a dangerous slope. Although some couples may be more reliant on sex than others, no relationship should be built primarily on sex. It will disintegrate. At the end of the day, the nurture, the care, the mindset that the little is precious and needs to be protected and loved, that the papa bear should be valued, respected, and equally treasured for all the goodness he provides his little with, should take precedence over what goes on in the bedroom. DDLG is so different for everyone so a myriad of perspectives and definitions will emerge but, as far as I'm concerned, it's more about "my papa bear winding me with all the tenderness of a little girl with her first ballerina box" than a strict, linear system of punishment and reward.

[Guest kittycandy's Daddy]

I'm still really new to the whole dynamic, so everything for me has been a learning experience - which I guess is everyone's case, you never stop learning.

When it comes to punishments we discuss what happened, whether a rule was broken, the punishment and then finally what I could best describe as the forgiveness stage. 
For example: Eating a food I consider a sweet which KC doesn't. Discussed, no punishment. 


Then there's the "punishments" and actual punishments of course. Sitting in the corner, losing privileges, etc.  Like you however, Mr Bones, I've found lectures to be the most effective punishment. Whereas other punishments are for bratty situations to quell the situation, later followed by a stern word or two.

[DaddyJsPrincess]

The act of punishment is never really about causing pain as a method of control inthe relationship I have with my Daddy. While I do want to feel like he is in control of me, it's not ever my intention to manipulate him into giving me a punishment. Do I slip in that respect? Yes. But primarily it serves to help me feel forgiven for whatever it was I did wrong. I did the thing, the thing was bad, I feel terrible. Daddy understands that my anxiety about the thing is generally punishment enough. But when Daddy gives the punishment (usually physical and usually enforced to the point of tears), I then can transition from feeling anxious to feeling forgiven.

 

Yes, I do enjoy my punishments, but I don't think that renders it ineffective at all. It's a tool that helps me to control my anxiety so that I can begin to communicate more effectively with my partner.

[Daddys__kitten]

My daddy doesn't have any rules for me and he doesn't punish me.

 

He do want the best behaved little there is, but thats not a rule, it's more a strong personality trait he has. He have zero, and I mean ZERO!, tolerance for nonsense. For him nonsense is the worst kind of being disrespectful towards him. And because my highest goal in life is to make him feel as good as possible, I would never do anything like that to him, like acting bratty, whining, nag etc. since thats counter productive to my goal.

 

Sometimes when I'm to stressed out and can't really focus, he gives me a few smacks on my butt, but thats not a punishment. He know that it will make me calm and it sends a clear signal about who is in charge and that I do not have to worry.

[Guest MyDaddyMyWorld]

We all have different needs, desires, dynamics and relationships, even under the umbrella dD/lg. to some its necessary, to others its not. Simple as that.

I do not particularly need punishment, but I greatly need discipline. So that in turn sometimes will lead to punishment that I fully expect and accept. Punishmemt itself to me is certainly not a sexual thing, its a correction of behaviour. I have so far only needed it once and I have no intention of incurring it again. But if I do, it will be taken and appreciated.

[Guest cookie_crumble_princess]

I would like to hear more opinions on this. I'm struggling between wanting spanks and being very afraid of physical punishments. It's more likely something I will work out with my future daddy, but hearing others opinions until then is helpful. 

[sushishui]

I have been lax with punishments in the past, and I think it has cost me relationships. I think that with some subs, bratty behavior is (whether they know it or not) a test of the Dom's dominance. They're seeing whether or not the Dom is ready and able to take control of the situation, and a Dom that isn't is less attractive.

 

Of course this doesn't apply to everyone, all subs, or even all brats. Punishment isn't a necessary part of every relationship. But in some relationships it is, and I think it's important for people to know when they're in one of those relationships.

[little mae]

I believe punishment can be very affective for Some. I need and long for that show of authority. It calms me. It makes me feel safe and love. It makes me want to try harder... and I don't deliberately act out to get it.

As a child I was neglected horribly.

As an adult Daddy fills a need by stepping up and making the boundary lines clear.

After my punishment, I am less likely to be fearful of abandonment even tho we've been together 7 years.

So yes with our particular relationship it works, and does not need to be used to often.