MGTOW and DDLG - Trigger warning -

March 9, 2018

@sweetcuriosity

Good story! Sad, but often true!

Hehe that wasn't me btw

I wouldn't have missed Edited March 9, 2018 by SweetCuriosity

March 9, 2018

The courts work most of the time, the exception to the rule are the ones that get most of the coverage.

I agree with most of what you said, but I have to disagree with this part. "most of the time" seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me. It's not usually an exception to the rule, it's relatively common (at least with who I've spoken to about it).

I know a lot of people in my family that had really bad experiences with child support and custody. It's almost always in favor of the women. It's a huge bias in our court system, and I think it's very dangerous. Women many times get much smaller punishments than men for the same crime as well (no personal experience in this, but (sfw) source HERE if interested).

March 9, 2018

I'd like to say something about the MGTOW thing and feminism cause they relate!

NOTE: a couple of years ago, I identified as a feminist. Now I see certain things posted online and people saying things that I believe are taken too far (and are actually sexist towards men a lot of the time), and the movement just doesn't resonate with me anymore. It used to be about equality for all. I agreed with that, I don't agree with blaming white cis men for problems in society.

There are so many injustices in our society. Against women and men alike. I would argue that most of these issues are society-based, and I believe that's what needs to change.

►We need to make women feel safe in public.

►We need to stop saying "real men don't cry".

►We need to stop telling men they can't get abused or assaulted.

►We need to stop asking women "what were you wearing" or "how much were you drinking" when they say they were assaulted.

►We need to stop calling lesbian women "hot" and using gay as an insult.

►We need to stop telling people they can't do something because it's for the "opposite gender".

►We need to stop making so many court decisions in favor of women, and realize that women are people that should be held responsible for their actions.

►We need to stop this blind hatred that so many people have. (Cis, trans, white, black, Jewish, women, men, feminists... it's like everyone is hating each other for fun now or because they've got nothing better to do. Stop hating people, you can disagree with them, but just stop hating them for Pete's sake.)

►We need to stop acting like there's "sides". There are no sides. We should all be fighting for rights as people to be treated equally. We need to stop segregating ourselves.

Personally, I hate this whole "men have to fight for our rights" thing because it's... it's like what SweetCuriosity said, it seems like "reverse feminism". The whole "we need equal rights" thing, but from what I read on their website, it seems like it's coming from a very sexist standpoint. Keep in mind that I just said that I thought that 3rd wave feminism could be sexist as well. Literally their first two quotes on their "History" page are basically saying "I invented this great thing, and a woman would have slowed me down"... That doesn't sound constructive to me. Neither does this quote I pulled from their "History" page. The TIMES article they referenced was so stupid and laughable that I'm not addressing it, but clearly I don't agree that all men are idiots. I can't believe they'd even run something like that.

"These "idiotic risks" which men have taken afford women the luxury of boarding an aircraft and flying from New York to Los Angeles in 4.5 hours - while never once needing to take an interest in the basic operating principles of a jet engine. She can't explain thrust to weight ratios, but she will complain the flight was delayed 30 minutes."

1. It's like they're saying "women only have this luxury because MEN invented it". Are women expected us to stop using all inventions that men made?

2. It also feels like they're saying "women don't know how an airplane works", but like... how many men OR women do you know that can ACTUALLY explain how an airplane works??? Oh, sorry, I didn't know I needed to be an engineer to drive my car lol

3. Is it saying women aren't smart enough to understand these things? Did they forget women could be pilots or engineers or even just have an interest in planes?

"Sorry boys, if we don't get airplanes, you don't get windshield wipers, fire escapes, or life rafts."

Like, I'm sorry, I just don't understand what they're saying here. And directly after that they say "Today, you can still see modern women contemplating the shape of the Earth... even though the question has been answered by men centuries ago,". I just... do they not realize that the flat earth society is a thing? And that it has both men and women in it??? It's not unique to women alone, and they use a stupid video, but I could just as easily say "Today, you can still see modern men contemplating whether or not the moon is a planet, even when the woman in the background is yelling at them that it's just a moon" and have this (sfw) video as a source, too! They're unique situations, I can't speak for all men when I show ONE video! Nor can they speak the way they do like they're addressing all women!

I don't buy what they're selling. I'm all for humans being treated as equals, but this organization, with their language and comments, seem to have their interests NOT in equality for all, but have their interests only in men (and I doubt they're open to gay men, either). We need to embrace our differences and see each other as people. Not just our gender or sex or outside features. Why do we feel the need to divide ourselves? It actually makes me quite sad.

Bonus (sfw) picture I found on MGTOW's twitter that makes me sad. Just dismissing women as promiscuous, abortion-having leftists. Women can disagree with abortion, women can be republicans, and women aren't the scum of the earth. It hurts me to believe people actually think this way.

(Quick side note about the wage gap, it does exist, but it's not as large as what people say it is. When taking into account the type of job*, maternity leave, years experience, etc., women still make a little less than men do. It's smaller than $0.70 to every $1, but it's still there. Not so fun fun fact! In several different studies, they split the participants into 2 groups. One group got a resume with a man's name at the top, while the other group got an identical resume with a woman's name at the top. The results were that the resume with the man's name was given a higher starting salary than the woman's, and the man's resume was hired more often.)

*Women mostly choose lower-paying jobs, choosing to stay away from STEM fields. Because women are expected (or want to) take care of children, they instead want jobs that have more flexibility, jobs where they work with people, and a variety of other reasons. This also is an issue because--again--a lot of it is societal-based, or even misconceptions about the job. When thinking about a "scientist", you think about a man working alone in a lab coat. That's so small-minded, and we need to tell our children that being a scientist isn't just that. There's tons of different scientific areas where you work with people or have more flexible hours. We need to stop gendering jobs, too. Stop telling our children they can't be a nurse because they're a boy, stop telling our children they can't be a scientist because they're a girl, etc.

Cuppycakes, I really enjoyed your response. Hope you don't mind me chiming in as to why!

The most important thing I drew from your response, is something that everyone on every part of the philosophical and political spectrum ought to learn. "we need to stop acting like there's "sides". There are no sides. We should all be fighting for rights as people to be treated equally. We need to stop segregating ourselves.".

T H I S. I think once people learn that womens rights are not inherently anti men and that mens rights are not inherently anti women, then we'll solve problems as humanity much faster. Once we stop victimising people in society and just focus on logic and fact as a species then things should be swell.

As for the whole airplane thing, it's magic isn't it? Sod it, I'm gonna believe that.

I found a couple other things you said interesting though. You say that we need to stop saying that lesbian women are hot and using gay as an insult. This is I find an interesting one.

One of my best mates is gay, and probably tosses the phrase "you're so gay" as an insult around more than anyone I've ever met. I think the guy would only take offence if someone meant it seriously and I think that's where the line needs to be drawn. I don't think there are any limits to comedy through insult (be it actually funny or not) BUT I also think you need to choose your company carefully if you're going to make that kind of insult. Should we stop doing it? Probably. Does it make you a jerk to do it? Probably. However, I respect someones right to be a jerk and just generally hope that they'll change their behaviour provided people stop hanging out with them for said poor behaviour. I talk about this often with my mate and he says that outright banning gay as an insult would make him feel victimised, a thought I find interesting.

As for saying lesbians are hot, there I'm not too sure I follow you. I mean generalising people and being ignorant is by and large a bad thing to do, but in the same breath I won't judge people for finding something like that to be a turn on. Can any of us here really judge lol? Should people be stereotyped? No. Should we tell people they can't find it hot? Also no. I'm not sure it has to be one or the other.

As for the whole wage gap thing, I'm one of those twats that gets bogged down in terminology. I think it's important to recognise that it is largely an earnings gap, not a wage gap. Total earnings are different but by law, wages are the same. Or at least, they certainly are here in the UK where women hold a tonne of power. PM is a woman as is the first minister of Scotland (and so on). Not complaining or anything, just making an observation (although the general consensus in the UK is that both these women are twats but we hate all our politicians so not to worry.).

Here in the UK we never tell young girls that they can't be X and Y. In fact, where I grew up they were encouraged and told they could succeed in work more than the boys. I can of course only speak from my own personal experience. What is interesting is that the girls school round the corner from where I lived allowed boys in the final two years. My brother chose to attend. His observations were interesting to say the least. He's a real left winger but the school assemblies were a bunch of man hating rallies, something not really denied by anyone else who attends. No idea where I'm going with that one, maybe just that girls receive just as much equal opportunity here as boys.

At the end of the day, I do not see a problem with the earnings gap. These women are making their own choices and for me, that's what the core of equality is all about. Choices. If I ever have a daughter, I will tell them be what you want to be. Don't let school tell you that you have to be a scientist because we need more women in the industry, but don't let a bully tell you that you can't do it either if you want to. Be a scientist, be a housewife, I don't care just be happy.

Regardless, I want to finish my ramblings by thanking Letsgoforanadventure for posting such a thought provoking topic and all those who replied for their ideas. I think this whole thread has been good for the community, the thought sharing has been respectful, fun and some of us may even have some stuff to think on. This is what makes a good community. I'm glad to be a part of it and y'all should be too!

ya boi

the Senate

Edited March 9, 2018 by I_AM_THE_SENATE

March 9, 2018

The courts work most of the time, the exception to the rule are the ones that get most of the coverage...

...For the most part police officers are good people trying to do their job, but still protect yourself stop talking.

I've worked with police officers, prosecutors...

I have no idea where you live or what courts you are referring to. The only ones with some sort of integrity here in the US are the Supreme Courts. If you went to a low level justice court and sat there for a whole day, you would see its just a money making scheme.

No, I do not believe police are good anymore. If you have a system that has quotas on tickets and arrests, and that is how you get promoted that is not good. It is also a terrible things to have a system investigating itself. "Why yes, we found no wrong doing when we investigated ourselves after 6 of our outstanding officers beat little Timmy to death". Just because you label something as "just doing their job"does not mean that it is morally or ethically correct. Then we can bring up that blue line... They will keep quiet when one of their "brothers" does something wrong because of their pledge to the badge.

Fact- The supreme court has ruled that police have no obligation to protect you.

So what are they for if it isn't feeding the jails and extorting money?

March 9, 2018

I'd like to say something about the MGTOW thing and feminism cause they relate!

NOTE: a couple of years ago, I identified as a feminist. Now I see certain things posted online and people saying things that I believe are taken too far (and are actually sexist towards men a lot of the time), and the movement just doesn't resonate with me anymore. It used to be about equality for all. I agreed with that, I don't agree with blaming white cis men for problems in society.

There are so many injustices in our society. Against women and men alike. I would argue that most of these issues are society-based, and I believe that's what needs to change.

►We need to make women feel safe in public.

►We need to stop saying "real men don't cry".

►We need to stop telling men they can't get abused or assaulted.

►We need to stop asking women "what were you wearing" or "how much were you drinking" when they say they were assaulted.

►We need to stop calling lesbian women "hot" and using gay as an insult.

►We need to stop telling people they can't do something because it's for the "opposite gender".

►We need to stop making so many court decisions in favor of women, and realize that women are people that should be held responsible for their actions.

►We need to stop this blind hatred that so many people have. (Cis, trans, white, black, Jewish, women, men, feminists... it's like everyone is hating each other for fun now or because they've got nothing better to do. Stop hating people, you can disagree with them, but just stop hating them for Pete's sake.)

►We need to stop acting like there's "sides". There are no sides. We should all be fighting for rights as people to be treated equally. We need to stop segregating ourselves.

Personally, I hate this whole "men have to fight for our rights" thing because it's... it's like what SweetCuriosity said, it seems like "reverse feminism". The whole "we need equal rights" thing, but from what I read on their website, it seems like it's coming from a very sexist standpoint. Keep in mind that I just said that I thought that 3rd wave feminism could be sexist as well. Literally their first two quotes on their "History" page are basically saying "I invented this great thing, and a woman would have slowed me down"... That doesn't sound constructive to me. Neither does this quote I pulled from their "History" page. The TIMES article they referenced was so stupid and laughable that I'm not addressing it, but clearly I don't agree that all men are idiots. I can't believe they'd even run something like that.

"These "idiotic risks" which men have taken afford women the luxury of boarding an aircraft and flying from New York to Los Angeles in 4.5 hours - while never once needing to take an interest in the basic operating principles of a jet engine. She can't explain thrust to weight ratios, but she will complain the flight was delayed 30 minutes."

1. It's like they're saying "women only have this luxury because MEN invented it". Are women expected us to stop using all inventions that men made?

2. It also feels like they're saying "women don't know how an airplane works", but like... how many men OR women do you know that can ACTUALLY explain how an airplane works??? Oh, sorry, I didn't know I needed to be an engineer to drive my car lol

3. Is it saying women aren't smart enough to understand these things? Did they forget women could be pilots or engineers or even just have an interest in planes?

"Sorry boys, if we don't get airplanes, you don't get windshield wipers, fire escapes, or life rafts."

Like, I'm sorry, I just don't understand what they're saying here. And directly after that they say "Today, you can still see modern women contemplating the shape of the Earth... even though the question has been answered by men centuries ago,". I just... do they not realize that the flat earth society is a thing? And that it has both men and women in it??? It's not unique to women alone, and they use a stupid video, but I could just as easily say "Today, you can still see modern men contemplating whether or not the moon is a planet, even when the woman in the background is yelling at them that it's just a moon" and have this (sfw) video as a source, too! They're unique situations, I can't speak for all men when I show ONE video! Nor can they speak the way they do like they're addressing all women!

I don't buy what they're selling. I'm all for humans being treated as equals, but this organization, with their language and comments, seem to have their interests NOT in equality for all, but have their interests only in men (and I doubt they're open to gay men, either). We need to embrace our differences and see each other as people. Not just our gender or sex or outside features. Why do we feel the need to divide ourselves? It actually makes me quite sad.

Bonus (sfw) picture I found on MGTOW's twitter that makes me sad. Just dismissing women as promiscuous, abortion-having leftists. Women can disagree with abortion, women can be republicans, and women aren't the scum of the earth. It hurts me to believe people actually think this way.

(Quick side note about the wage gap, it does exist, but it's not as large as what people say it is. When taking into account the type of job*, maternity leave, years experience, etc., women still make a little less than men do. It's smaller than $0.70 to every $1, but it's still there. Not so fun fun fact! In several different studies, they split the participants into 2 groups. One group got a resume with a man's name at the top, while the other group got an identical resume with a woman's name at the top. The results were that the resume with the man's name was given a higher starting salary than the woman's, and the man's resume was hired more often.)

*Women mostly choose lower-paying jobs, choosing to stay away from STEM fields. Because women are expected (or want to) take care of children, they instead want jobs that have more flexibility, jobs where they work with people, and a variety of other reasons. This also is an issue because--again--a lot of it is societal-based, or even misconceptions about the job. When thinking about a "scientist", you think about a man working alone in a lab coat. That's so small-minded, and we need to tell our children that being a scientist isn't just that. There's tons of different scientific areas where you work with people or have more flexible hours. We need to stop gendering jobs, too. Stop telling our children they can't be a nurse because they're a boy, stop telling our children they can't be a scientist because they're a girl, etc.

Thanks for joining!

I'm no expert in MGTOW I just find some of the ideology interesting and resonates with me. I certainly see there are extreme points of view in it however I was more addressing a few of the valid points, not necessarily "the woman are evil" stance. If you read the section of how I compared it to feminism I think there are certain pieces that can align but also differ. At the end of the day I feel like a lot of people that have joined or noted interest in such a concept have been those that have been injured by the current standards. From my understanding they aren't fighting against women, they are just saying no to things like marriage, or kids, or anything that can have negative impacts on their life based on certain interrelations.

I think most of us would prefer being labeled as an Equalitist vs another label that focuses on one group or another. I do agree with your point about divides and taking sides on all fronts which is why I was curious about one of your points where you said make women feel safe in public? First of all, safety is an illusion. The second part is, wouldn't this stance go back to taking sides?

Again, I certainly don't agree with some of the unfounded rhetoric especially when it comes to inventions. There are plenty of female inventors, researchers, and scientists. Marie Curie comes to mind.

I am with Senate on this one. The wage gap is incorrect. It is the pay gap that everyone refers to and assumes it means the same thing. That is one of the wonderful and awful things about statistics. They can be presented and worded in a way to make the statement beneficial for a targeted audience.

If you research the census bureau wage gap andFemale-to-Male Earnings Ratio you will find your quoted and well recited stats of 80%. The ringer that will shed light on the difference is hours worked by gender. Once you take that into consideration you will find that women in fact get paid a higher salary, they just on average work less hours which creates the pay gap, not wage gap.

CC I am interested in your points of view on the following

Maintaining a long term DDLG relationship without marriage and how to do so.
How to maintain an equal relationship in its own right
Mitigating negative outside influences, and addressing those that claim abuse
Social Media and or Media and its negative effects on society/you and your partner
How to protect yourself from others
How to protect yourself from an abusive government
Can DDLG and MGTOW coexist

March 9, 2018

(1.)The most important thing I drew from your response, is something that everyone on every part of the philosophical and political spectrum ought to learn. "we need to stop acting like there's "sides". There are no sides. We should all be fighting for rights as people to be treated equally. We need to stop segregating ourselves.".

T H I S. I think once people learn that womens rights are not inherently anti men and that mens rights are not inherently anti women, then we'll solve problems as humanity much faster. Once we stop victimising people in society and just focus on logic and fact as a species then things should be swell.

(2.)As for the whole airplane thing, it's magic isn't it? Sod it, I'm gonna believe that.

(3.)I found a couple other things you said interesting though. You say that we need to stop saying that lesbian women are hot and using gay as an insult. This is I find an interesting one.

One of my best mates is gay, and probably tosses the phrase "you're so gay" as an insult around more than anyone I've ever met. I think the guy would only take offence if someone meant it seriously and I think that's where the line needs to be drawn. I don't think there are any limits to comedy through insult (be it actually funny or not) BUT I also think you need to choose your company carefully if you're going to make that kind of insult. Should we stop doing it? Probably. Does it make you a jerk to do it? Probably. However, I respect someones right to be a jerk and just generally hope that they'll change their behaviour provided people stop hanging out with them for said poor behaviour. I talk about this often with my mate and he says that outright banning gay as an insult would make him feel victimised, a thought I find interesting.

As for saying lesbians are hot, there I'm not too sure I follow you. I mean generalising people and being ignorant is by and large a bad thing to do, but in the same breath I won't judge people for finding something like that to be a turn on. Can any of us here really judge lol? Should people be stereotyped? No. Should we tell people they can't find it hot? Also no. I'm not sure it has to be one or the other.

(4.)As for the whole wage gap thing, I'm one of those twats that gets bogged down in terminology. I think it's important to recognise that it is largely an earnings gap, not a wage gap. Total earnings are different but by law, wages are the same. Or at least, they certainly are here in the UK where women hold a tonne of power. PM is a woman as is the first minister of Scotland (and so on). Not complaining or anything, just making an observation (although the general consensus in the UK is that both these women are twats but we hate all our politicians so not to worry.).

(5.)Here in the UK we never tell young girls that they can't be X and Y. In fact, where I grew up they were encouraged and told they could succeed in work more than the boys. I can of course only speak from my own personal experience. What is interesting is that the girls school round the corner from where I lived allowed boys in the final two years. My brother chose to attend. His observations were interesting to say the least. He's a real left winger but the school assemblies were a bunch of man hating rallies, something not really denied by anyone else who attends. No idea where I'm going with that one, maybe just that girls receive just as much equal opportunity here as boys.

(6.)At the end of the day, I do not see a problem with the earnings gap. These women are making their own choices and for me, that's what the core of equality is all about. Choices. If I ever have a daughter, I will tell them be what you want to be. Don't let school tell you that you have to be a scientist because we need more women in the industry, but don't let a bully tell you that you can't do it either if you want to. Be a scientist, be a housewife, I don't care just be happy.

Thanks for the response! I numbered your points just to make it easier to follow.

1. YES! THANK YOU. (also with your point on logic and fact, there's this great shirt by Phil Defranco that says "Why be informed when you can use your feelings as your facts?" and honestly I love it so much.)

2. Yeah it is! They have wizards on every flight.

3. I think that point of mine may have been hard to follow, I apologize. I kind of meant the double-standard when it comes to certain types of people. I've got no problem with people thinking something is attractive, but I know too many men who say lesbians are hot and then turn around and say that being gay man is sinful and wrong... oh, but lesbians are okay because they're catering to my interests. It's a pretty toxic attitude that some men have, and it needs to change. (Hopefully that makes a bit more sense.)

I agree with you 1000% with saying no words are off the table. I don't have a problem with people using any words they want, as long as it's not hateful in context (just like what you're saying). I tend to call this the idubbbz argument.

4. Soooo I googled "wage vs earnings gap" and I apologize for using the wrong term. Thanks for the call out! I love learning new things.

5. Woah, that's a huge culture difference right there. My parents never told me that I couldn't be a lawyer or scientist (both were things I wanted to be), or play with "boy's toys", but I personally know a lot of people who tell their kids that they can't have or do something because it's for girls/boys. Even something as minuscule as playing with dolls. My family was really good with this, I wore clothes from the boy's section for a few years and my mom didn't act like anything was unusual. I just know that a lot of families wouldn't be okay with this. Quick example, I know one family where the mother loves buying cute clothes for her son (he's 5 months old), and if something is too cute or gender-neutral, the father says that he doesn't like it because it makes his son look "gay". He's just a baby!!! I dunno, man, even other kids discourage kids here if they see something that's not in their idea of a gender norm.

I'm glad it's not like that in the UK, not so glad about the girls school thing... Also I'm not sure how to respond except that that sounds terrifying.

6. Fun fact!

"Of the 30 highest paying professions, men dominate 26 of those job sectors. Of the 30 lowest paying professions, women hold the majority in 23." SFW SOURCE

I totally agree that we should just encourage our kids to be happy and do what makes them happy (I'm going to school for something that probably won't make me the breadwinner, either lol). I also think that this statistic is a result of what I said in point 5. If you don't see that stuff, and it's a culture difference, I'm willing to bet that's why our views aren't the same here. If we didn't gender occupations so much (like you say they don't in the UK), and didn't have this idea that "men work for necessity, women work for extra spending money", I think it would be much better. I also think that that statistic would change, and women would choose higher-paying jobs more often (and maybe men would choose lower-paying jobs that make them happier). Of course not all women/men, I just think it'd be way closer to 50/50 instead of 86/14 (did the math lol).

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response!

March 9, 2018

(1.)Thanks for joining!

(2.)I'm no expert in MGTOW I just find some of the ideology interesting and resonates with me. I certainly see there are extreme points of view in it however I was more addressing a few of the valid points, not necessarily "the woman are evil" stance. If you read the section of how I compared it to feminism I think there are certain pieces that can align but also differ. At the end of the day I feel like a lot of people that have joined or noted interest in such a concept have been those that have been injured by the current standards. From my understanding they aren't fighting against women, they are just saying no to things like marriage, or kids, or anything that can have negative impacts on their life based on certain interrelations.

(3.)I think most of us would prefer being labeled as an Equalitist vs another label that focuses on one group or another. I do agree with your point about divides and taking sides on all fronts which is why I was curious about one of your points where you said make women feel safe in public? First of all, safety is an illusion. The second part is, wouldn't this stance go back to taking sides?

Again, I certainly don't agree with some of the unfounded rhetoric especially when it comes to inventions. There are plenty of female inventors, researchers, and scientists. Marie Curie comes to mind.

(4.)I am with Senate on this one. The wage gap is incorrect. It is the pay gap that everyone refers to and assumes it means the same thing. That is one of the wonderful and awful things about statistics. They can be presented and worded in a way to make the statement beneficial for a targeted audience.

If you research the census bureau wage gap andFemale-to-Male Earnings Ratio you will find your quoted and well recited stats of 80%. The ringer that will shed light on the difference is hours worked by gender. Once you take that into consideration you will find that women in fact get paid a higher salary, they just on average work less hours which creates the pay gap, not wage gap.

CC I am interested in your points of view on the following

(5.)Maintaining a long term DDLG relationship without marriage and how to do so.

(6.)How to maintain an equal relationship in its own right

(7.)Mitigating negative outside influences, and addressing those that claim abuse

(8.)Social Media and or Media and its negative effects on society/you and your partner

(9.)How to protect yourself from others

(10.)How to protect yourself from an abusive government

(11.)Can DDLG and MGTOW coexist

(doing the same thing I did with Senate's response for ease)

1. Happy to be here! I love constructive conversations.

2. I am also not an expert on MGTOW, I just read a couple of pages from their website and disagreed with a lot of it. Some of it seems fine to me, I just didn't like that weird sexist vibe I got from a lot of it. To quote Senate "womens rights are not inherently anti men and that mens rights are not inherently anti women", though I feel like MGTOW is pretty anti-women, so I disagree with their stance.

3. I actually debated leaving that point in or not, but I decided to keep it because I know way more women who walk around with pepper spray than men do, so I consider it more of an issue for women but not exclusively an issue for women.

Technically you could say all of my points were "taking sides", but the difference is that I don't think we have to segregate ourselves into groups of "men vs women" in order to fix those issues. You don't have to be a feminist to believe in rights for women (and recognizing they don't have the same rights as men), and you don't have to be a MGTOW to believe in rights for men (and recognizing they don't have the same rights as women). We all have issues that need to be addressed and fixed, but I don't believe it's necessary to fix them by saying "I WANT RIGHTS IT'S YOUR FAULT I DON'T HAVE THOSE RIGHTS" etc.

4. I already addressed Senate's stance, and I agree with him, too! Did a quick google, and the correct term is "earnings gap", and I think that's fair. Still think it exists lol

NOTE: I didn't address these↓ in the original post because

I don't have much to say about them.

5. I think if you really don't want to get married, it's no different than a vanilla relationship. You don't have to be married to be in a committed relationship. As long as you're committed to each other, if you're not interested in marriage I think it's whatever. That being said, I do want to get married someday. It's convenient, expresses that you are committed to each other, and if you're not ever planning on breaking up I don't personally see why you wouldn't get married.

6. An equal relationship? Respect each other. I don't think there's much more to it. I assume you mean having two people in a relationship equal to each other. I can't say much on it because it's never been an issue that my partner and I have had to address.

7. I have no idea what you're talking about here. Do you mean women who falsely accuse men of abuse?

8. Again, I can't say much about this one. I haven't had much experience in it. Personally, I stopped using facebook and instagram and I'm trying to stop going on some other types of social media as well. I don't think it affects me or my partner, but we never used those to communicate anyways.

I guess I could talk about media? But it seems like a totally different subject. I don't care for news, I don't follow it much, but when I do it's from online sources that I think are pretty well-balanced between left and right. I could talk all day about media and how it's hurting our society, but I don't know if that's relevant. Also I don't have time lol

9. Well, my SO has a glock so that's one way.

10. Well, my SO has a glock so that's one way.

(just kidding. To be frank, I don't really... care? Like this isn't something that interests me. I can't just debate/discuss something that I've never thought about or researched before.)

11. I don't think that MGTOW should exist at all. It's kind of like how I said I didn't identify as a feminist because I disagree with some of their principles. I feel like people who disagree with some of the principles of MGTOW should stop associating themselves with this movement. The reason they say that "you shouldn't get married" is because the woman takes up too much time, right? And littles--many times--take up a lot of time and attention (Lord knows I do). I don't think that someone with that mindset can or should be involved with DDlg because to me, it seems like they don't respect women enough to even consider dating them, let alone being in an intimate relationship which requires a lot of work and respect for each other (some may say even more than in a vanilla relationship). Not saying everyone in the movement is like that, but from what I read about it, that's what they stand for, and I don't think people should be in the movement if they don't stand for that. They should find a different movement that aligns with their ideals more.

In short, no I don't think that MGTOW can exist with DDlg because the ideals with that movement do not align with some of the basic principles of DDlg. Maybe it can, but I don't know if it should.

Edited March 10, 2018 by cuppycakes
finished the post!

March 9, 2018

I’m not sure if it’s totally relevant but there was the He for She campaign that aimed at raising rights and improving things for men to get better equality for women too. I’m not sure if it is right to post this here but I thought it might be related and could interest someone

March 9, 2018

Thanks for the response! I numbered your points just to make it easier to follow.

1. YES! THANK YOU. (also with your point on logic and fact, there's this great shirt by Phil Defranco that says "Why be informed when you can use your feelings as your facts?" and honestly I love it so much.)

2. Yeah it is! They have wizards on every flight.

3. I think that point of mine may have been hard to follow, I apologize. I kind of meant the double-standard when it comes to certain types of people. I've got no problem with people thinking something is attractive, but I know too many men who say lesbians are hot and then turn around and say that being gay man is sinful and wrong... oh, but lesbians are okay because they're catering to my interests. It's a pretty toxic attitude that some men have, and it needs to change. (Hopefully that makes a bit more sense.)

I agree with you 1000% with saying no words are off the table. I don't have a problem with people using any words they want, as long as it's not hateful in context (just like what you're saying). I tend to call this the idubbbz argument.

4. Soooo I googled "wage vs earnings gap" and I apologize for using the wrong term. Thanks for the call out! I love learning new things.

5. Woah, that's a huge culture difference right there. My parents never told me that I couldn't be a lawyer or scientist (both were things I wanted to be), or play with "boy's toys", but I personally know a lot of people who tell their kids that they can't have or do something because it's for girls/boys. Even something as minuscule as playing with dolls. My family was really good with this, I wore clothes from the boy's section for a few years and my mom didn't act like anything was unusual. I just know that a lot of families wouldn't be okay with this. Quick example, I know one family where the mother loves buying cute clothes for her son (he's 5 months old), and if something is too cute or gender-neutral, the father says that he doesn't like it because it makes his son look "gay". He's just a baby!!! I dunno, man, even other kids discourage kids here if they see something that's not in their idea of a gender norm.

I'm glad it's not like that in the UK, not so glad about the girls school thing... Also I'm not sure how to respond except that that sounds terrifying.

6. Fun fact!

"Of the 30 highest paying professions, men dominate 26 of those job sectors. Of the 30 lowest paying professions, women hold the majority in 23." SFW SOURCE

I totally agree that we should just encourage our kids to be happy and do what makes them happy (I'm going to school for something that probably won't make me the breadwinner, either lol). I also think that this statistic is a result of what I said in point 5. If you don't see that stuff, and it's a culture difference, I'm willing to bet that's why our views aren't the same here. If we didn't gender occupations so much (like you say they don't in the UK), and didn't have this idea that "men work for necessity, women work for extra spending money", I think it would be much better. I also think that that statistic would change, and women would choose higher-paying jobs more often (and maybe men would choose lower-paying jobs that make them happier). Of course not all women/men, I just think it'd be way closer to 50/50 instead of 86/14 (did the math lol).

Thank you so much for your thoughtful response!

Glad you enjoyed my response dude! Enjoyed reading yours thoroughly. Gonna chuck some more thoughts your way if that's cool...

Your 3rd point about homosexuality, thanks for clarifying, I'm with ya now. It's very easy for me to forget that people still hold these double standards with regard to that, mostly because they're in a (thankfully) dying minority. I like to think they don't represent the population and that the vast majority of us don't listen to muppets that think that way. But yeah I think with time, the double standard that remains in some places will die out eventually. There will always be one or two idiots about, but hey that's humanity and how dull would life be without the odd nutcase here and there eh?

As for your point No. 5, I will raise my kids to be happy, regardless of gender norms. But, (and whilst this may be controversial in this day and age) I don't have a huge problem with gender norms and will raise my kids to bear them in mind to SOME extent. This may seem close minded and unprogressive but hear me out... I think it's about common sense. It's not all bad...

Firstly, if you're going to go down the gender norms route, you have establish that they are not to be used as hard rules but rather guidelines. Secondly, you have to pick the ones that make basic, logical, sense. For example, telling boys to just man up and bottle up their feelings? Bad move. However, encouraging them to be physically strong in the pursuit of a healthy lifestyle or teaching them a bit of chivalry? The former is actively a good idea and the latter, well what's the harm? With this in mind however, if one of my sons ends up a total fairy, I don't care, as long as they're happy.

With gender norms though, I think there is SOME scientific basis for them and I don't really see the harm in admitting that male and female brains have differences, at any age. Bear in mind I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they can operate differently. My mother works in the education field in psychology. Studies where you put a bunch of toys in a room full of young children show that by and large, the boys go for the cars and the girls for the dolls.

For this reason I'll likely buy my kids toys in the traditional gendered sense just because it's a personal theory of mine that children are naturally geared up to go for certain toys most of the time based on what I saw in these studies first hand. However, i'm not going to flip my shit if my son asks for a doll or my daughter for a bunch of hot wheels. I mean whatever makes them happy. One thing is for certain though, they're getting fucking Lego whether they like it or not because that shit is the bomb.

I'm not sure what my point is here? I think what I'm getting at is that gender norms exist due to some cultural but also some biological reasons. I don't think they're totally evil all the time but I don't think they need to be followed religiously either. Many will say they have to be followed, many would say raise kids totally gender neutral. The solution as always, is probably somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I guess where I'm going with this is as follows: Yes I will raise my sons to be physically strong. For their health, to defend those they care about, and for their pride. I will raise them to learn that being a man is being strong, but that expressing their emotions is healthy. I will teach them that it is ok to cry as men, so that when time truly comes to step up, they have dealt with their emotions healthily can do what needs to be done. This is the strength a man must truly have as such. In this hypothetical scenario, they have been raised with a gender norm, with a modifier that incorporates logic and reason. One can have a gender norm, and still allow society to progress. It's all about perspective. Similar examples could be applied to daughters as well but this is just what came to mind first.

I find your idea of gendering occupations to be an interesting one. Is it a good thing to gender them? I seriously doubt it. BUT, I also believe the following: If you shy away from something just because society says it's for men or women to do, then you didn't want it that badly. There's a show here called fireman Sam that was just cancelled because the main character is a man and they didn't want to put women off of being firefighters, which is funny as I'm pretty sure the person in charge of firefighting here is a woman but anyways. Yes. Really. I think if you're gonna get put off of a job by a childrens cartoon, then you actually didn't want it that badly. I think perhaps yes, people could be discouraged by gendered jobs. However, I think in the western world, you can really do what you want with your life regardless of race or gender or whatever, unless you put pineapple on pizza, then I hope your dreams turn to ashes.

I don't want more women in high paying jobs because they're women, I actually find that pretty condescending to women. I want them in those jobs IF they want and CHOOSE to be there. Otherwise I don't much care. People are clearly making choices that make them happy. I've been ranting on for so long now that I can't for the life of me remember where I started but I hope you enjoyed...

ya boi

The Senate

March 9, 2018

Maybe bit offtopic but here it goes....

"Maintaining a long term DDLG relationship without marriage and how to do so."

I don't really see the issue with this? Marriage is not some needed part of relationship progession.

Some people want to get married, some don't. You need to find person who does not want marriage as it is pretty cruel if a person has to let go of a dream they have had for long (it can be a big value to get married). Just like I don't (want to) date people who want kids as I don't want children: that would be highly incompatible match and at least one party would suffer a lot in the end.

Imo people should consider why they want/don't want to get married. What is the real issue/thing there?

As what marriage is and what it means depends a LOT on the couple. I'm atheist and for me it has originally been just a legal contract. But I'm also into transition ceremonies that celebrate life, so marriage/commitment ceremony holds value in that way to me also. Those ceremonies help me put my head around changes that happen in life.

I got married as I wanted to look after my SO even after my death: that they would have roof on top of their head, and no need to worry about money as that is the last thing they want to do after just loosing their partner. Of course I have prenup in case marriage ends in divorce. Then there is all sort of tax benefits and so on but not going into them.

Yes, you can testament your wealth but: legal system here gives my family a possibility to start arguing about my fortune in court if I die -even I would have a testament. They would loose eventually but I wanted to make sure there is no possibility for any extra stress in case of my death. My family are good people but people can also go bit crazy if they loose a loved one.

"Mitigating negative outside influences, and addressing those that claim abuse"

Small sidenote: I came cross term "warrior princess submissive" not too long ago. While looking into it found text from someone about how that consept can be the saving grace for BDSM if the media starts witch hunt aganst it. For then you would have these "warrior princesses" who kick ass in 'real life' and are like the absolute opposite of oppressed doormat who is abused into silence, so counter story. I think it was an interesting idea -even to me it seems that BDSM is getting quite main stream and the risk that anything too terrible would happen is slight.

March 10, 2018

We can always dream up reasons to fear the future, but it shouldn't prevent a person from living their dream, and living a wild, exciting, fulfilling life. Some things carry risk and some more than others. I've been lucky. You can be too.

March 10, 2018

Glad you enjoyed my response dude! Enjoyed reading yours thoroughly. Gonna chuck some more thoughts your way if that's cool...

(1.)Your 3rd point about homosexuality, thanks for clarifying, I'm with ya now. It's very easy for me to forget that people still hold these double standards with regard to that, mostly because they're in a (thankfully) dying minority. I like to think they don't represent the population and that the vast majority of us don't listen to muppets that think that way. But yeah I think with time, the double standard that remains in some places will die out eventually. There will always be one or two idiots about, but hey that's humanity and how dull would life be without the odd nutcase here and there eh?

(2.)As for your point No. 5, I will raise my kids to be happy, regardless of gender norms. But, (and whilst this may be controversial in this day and age) I don't have a huge problem with gender norms and will raise my kids to bear them in mind to SOME extent. This may seem close minded and unprogressive but hear me out... I think it's about common sense. It's not all bad...

Firstly, if you're going to go down the gender norms route, you have establish that they are not to be used as hard rules but rather guidelines. Secondly, you have to pick the ones that make basic, logical, sense. For example, telling boys to just man up and bottle up their feelings? Bad move. However, encouraging them to be physically strong in the pursuit of a healthy lifestyle or teaching them a bit of chivalry? The former is actively a good idea and the latter, well what's the harm? With this in mind however, if one of my sons ends up a total fairy, I don't care, as long as they're happy.

(3.) With gender norms though, I think there is SOME scientific basis for them and I don't really see the harm in admitting that male and female brains have differences, at any age. Bear in mind I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they can operate differently. My mother works in the education field in psychology. Studies where you put a bunch of toys in a room full of young children show that by and large, the boys go for the cars and the girls for the dolls.

For this reason I'll likely buy my kids toys in the traditional gendered sense just because it's a personal theory of mine that children are naturally geared up to go for certain toys most of the time based on what I saw in these studies first hand. However, i'm not going to flip my shit if my son asks for a doll or my daughter for a bunch of hot wheels. I mean whatever makes them happy. One thing is for certain though, they're getting fucking Lego whether they like it or not because that shit is the bomb.

I'm not sure what my point is here? I think what I'm getting at is that gender norms exist due to some cultural but also some biological reasons. I don't think they're totally evil all the time but I don't think they need to be followed religiously either. Many will say they have to be followed, many would say raise kids totally gender neutral. The solution as always, is probably somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. I guess where I'm going with this is as follows: Yes I will raise my sons to be physically strong. For their health, to defend those they care about, and for their pride. I will raise them to learn that being a man is being strong, but that expressing their emotions is healthy. I will teach them that it is ok to cry as men, so that when time truly comes to step up, they have dealt with their emotions healthily can do what needs to be done. This is the strength a man must truly have as such. In this hypothetical scenario, they have been raised with a gender norm, with a modifier that incorporates logic and reason. One can have a gender norm, and still allow society to progress. It's all about perspective. Similar examples could be applied to daughters as well but this is just what came to mind first.

(4.)I find your idea of gendering occupations to be an interesting one. Is it a good thing to gender them? I seriously doubt it. BUT, I also believe the following: If you shy away from something just because society says it's for men or women to do, then you didn't want it that badly. There's a show here called fireman Sam that was just cancelled because the main character is a man and they didn't want to put women off of being firefighters, which is funny as I'm pretty sure the person in charge of firefighting here is a woman but anyways. Yes. Really. I think if you're gonna get put off of a job by a childrens cartoon, then you actually didn't want it that badly. I think perhaps yes, people could be discouraged by gendered jobs. However, I think in the western world, you can really do what you want with your life regardless of race or gender or whatever, unless you put pineapple on pizza, then I hope your dreams turn to ashes.

(5.)I don't want more women in high paying jobs because they're women, I actually find that pretty condescending to women. I want them in those jobs IF they want and CHOOSE to be there. Otherwise I don't much care. People are clearly making choices that make them happy. I've been ranting on for so long now that I can't for the life of me remember where I started but I hope you enjoyed...

ya boi

The Senate

1. I agree, I'm so glad it's on a dying trend. It used to be SO much worse.

2. BOI you are mY BOI I totally understand and respect that. Another point to make would be things like bullying. I probably wouldn't allow my young son to wear a dress to school because of bullies (that is, if it's still not okay by that time), but I'd be perfectly fine with it at home. Gotta teach those kids common sense and that some norms are stupid and some norms they'll probably like. (also I bolded a sentence that made me giggle)

3. Yeah there are differences! My professor was a gender studies teacher and she also worked with children regularly! She had the opposite theory, though, and talked about how kids learn at a very young age what is "for me" and what is "not for me" based off of parent/peer feedback and media. We look at some of the aspects in the brain itself, but largely there are very few differences in brains as children. Men and women's brains start to become more and more different throughout adolescence and adulthood, but start out way more similar than that. (DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS RELEVANT BUT I'M PUMPED SO I'M GOING TO BRING IT UP ANYWAY There are even studies where parents are shown an infant in a white outfit crying, and parents who were told the child was a boy would say "he's angry", but if they were told the child was a girl they would say "oh, she's sad". Interesting stuff right here what we do to our kids without even realizing it. Even the words they hear as babies affect them and their idea of normalcy as they grow and learn.)

Also, just don't get "Lego Friends" because THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK THE SAME IT MAKES ME SO SAD IF I WANTED POLLY POCKETS I'D JUST GET POLLY POCKETS GIVE ME THOSE LEGOS WITH THE HORSES AND SPEEDBOATS AND IMPOSSIBLE AIRPLANES THAT FLY BY MAGIC GET THAT WEAK SHIT OUT OF HERE original lego is better...

For the record, I don't think gender norms are totally evil either. I just think there's some problems with the way our society treats them.

4. I think you underestimate how much children are influenced by feedback. If, as a child, a little boy wanted to become a nurse, and all the children laughed and made fun of him because "that's a girl job you can't do that!", he may get discouraged before he even finds out if it is his passion or not. Does that make sense? As an adult, I can understand people saying "you can't do this" might just get you to be more determined, but as a child? I dunno, man, I think the logic is different for chillens.

5. Did I sound like I wanted women to be in high-paying jobs JUST because they're women? If so, sorry. Not what I meant. I meant it that I have a feeling women--if not discouraged from high-paying jobs--would choose high-paying jobs more often than they do now. Everyone should be happy, I agree with you there, but I think that sometimes people don't even consider that high-paying job an option.

These people may not want it bad enough, as you say, but some people believe that the discrimination they may face from closed-minded individuals in a high-paying field is worse than having a low-level job. All about priorities imo

March 10, 2018

1. I agree, I'm so glad it's on a dying trend. It used to be SO much worse.

2. BOI you are mY BOI I totally understand and respect that. Another point to make would be things like bullying. I probably wouldn't allow my young son to wear a dress to school because of bullies (that is, if it's still not okay by that time), but I'd be perfectly fine with it at home. Gotta teach those kids common sense and that some norms are stupid and some norms they'll probably like. (also I bolded a sentence that made me giggle)

3. Yeah there are differences! My professor was a gender studies teacher and she also worked with children regularly! She had the opposite theory, though, and talked about how kids learn at a very young age what is "for me" and what is "not for me" based off of parent/peer feedback and media. We look at some of the aspects in the brain itself, but largely there are very few differences in brains as children. Men and women's brains start to become more and more different throughout adolescence and adulthood, but start out way more similar than that. (DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS RELEVANT BUT I'M PUMPED SO I'M GOING TO BRING IT UP ANYWAY There are even studies where parents are shown an infant in a white outfit crying, and parents who were told the child was a boy would say "he's angry", but if they were told the child was a girl they would say "oh, she's sad". Interesting stuff right here what we do to our kids without even realizing it. Even the words they hear as babies affect them and their idea of normalcy as they grow and learn.)

Also, just don't get "Lego Friends" because THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK THE SAME IT MAKES ME SO SAD IF I WANTED POLLY POCKETS I'D JUST GET POLLY POCKETS GIVE ME THOSE LEGOS WITH THE HORSES AND SPEEDBOATS AND IMPOSSIBLE AIRPLANES THAT FLY BY MAGIC GET THAT WEAK SHIT OUT OF HERE original lego is better...

For the record, I don't think gender norms are totally evil either. I just think there's some problems with the way our society treats them.

4. I think you underestimate how much children are influenced by feedback. If, as a child, a little boy wanted to become a nurse, and all the children laughed and made fun of him because "that's a girl job you can't do that!", he may get discouraged before he even finds out if it is his passion or not. Does that make sense? As an adult, I can understand people saying "you can't do this" might just get you to be more determined, but as a child? I dunno, man, I think the logic is different for chillens.

5. Did I sound like I wanted women to be in high-paying jobs JUST because they're women? If so, sorry. Not what I meant. I meant it that I have a feeling women--if not discouraged from high-paying jobs--would choose high-paying jobs more often than they do now. Everyone should be happy, I agree with you there, but I think that sometimes people don't even consider that high-paying job an option.

These people may not want it bad enough, as you say, but some people believe that the discrimination they may face from closed-minded individuals in a high-paying field is worse than having a low-level job. All about priorities imo

BOOOOOOIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Yeah fuck lego friends, those things creep me right out. You know who I'm voting for in the next election? Whichever candidate promises to bring back bionicle. Do you think it's a coincidence that they discontinued it and now we're on the brink of another cold war? DO YOU?! AHEM, i mean yeah lego friends suck and bionicle was awesome....

The study you reference about the infant makes total sense to me, we do think that way as a society BUT is that so unreasonable? At primary school ages boys tend to anger a greater amount or perhaps more easily than girls. Just my observation from experience working in education and from what I remember as a child. I'm not necessarily saying making assertions about the needs of a crying baby based on gender alone is in any way advisable I'm just saying it makes sense as to why society does it and at the end of the day it prooooobably isn't the end of the world as we know it (will concede if world ends due to this).

I don't necessarily underestimate how children respond to feedback, I just don't place too high a necessity on it because we all grow up and that's when the real decisions begin.

I also note, again from my own experience, that girls here receive all the encouragement they need to succeed. They outnumber boys at uni A LOT and even on courses such as law, which i studied.

If I remember my data correctly, girls actually out earn boys in their early 20s in the UK but for the life of me I do not remember where I read that. PEW data? Maybe, probably that.

At the end of the day, I suppose I don't have that much sympathy for the childhood feedback idea because I didn't have the nicest childhood and where I grew up wasn't that great. I was told my whole life I couldn't do this that and the other. Which for me just made me want to do it more. I succeed just to spite those who said I couldn't. I guess what I'm getting at, is that no matter what your childhood, you can succeed if you want to. You will carry your demons yes but if you wake up and ask yourself every morning "How bad do I want it?", and the answer is 'enough', then you will succeed; certainly in the west anyway. Do we need to stop laughing at children, regardless of gender, for their dreams? ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY. Do I think however that feedback is responsible for a persons life choices? Not especially. Regardless, I see merits to both arguments and I think the debate amongst people about it will go on for a while.

As for your final point, no you didn't come across that way. I was just going on about it as I thought maybe it would be relevant or interesting. As for people who don't take high paying jobs as they are worried they may face discrimination. I don't really have much to say other than JUST DO IIIIIIIT. You gotta want it bad enough.

The way I think about it is like this. A couple years back, I was obese as fuck. I was worried to go to the gym and lose weight because I thought people would laugh at me. But I found a way round that and now I've never been healthier or fitter because I made a choice not to let what people might think or do to me define my choices. Perhaps that's not the best example but I'm trying to highlight a certain way of thinking that I believe to be healthy for the individual. I guess what I'm getting at is that if someone doesn't take a job, then they have no one to blame but themselves, regardless of the motivation. I may seem harsh or unsympathetic but all I'm saying is that I believe in the power of the individual to achieve anything.

I think this has been really productive discussion, and I'm enjoying it. You seem like a real smart one mate,

ya boi

The Senate

March 10, 2018

Why exactly did it take "balls" to post this?

I'll tip my cap and say it's nice to read this here. It may not have taken "balls" exactly, but there is a social stigma talking about MGTOW even with other men. It gets a little strange sometimes.

March 10, 2018

I'll tip my cap and say it's nice to read this here. It may not have taken "balls" exactly, but there is a social stigma talking about MGTOW even with other men. It gets a little strange sometimes.

I think when it comes to stigmas against movements, it's the same every time. There's always one or two muppets who ruin it for everyone else, which can create a stigma because it's always the idiots who get the attention. That said, I too am glad OP chose to post on a more controversial topic as the responses have all been respectful and insightful.

March 10, 2018

Maybe bit offtopic but here it goes....

"Maintaining a long term DDLG relationship without marriage and how to do so."

I don't really see the issue with this? Marriage is not some needed part of relationship progession. I agree, I want to know how to address such things and how to make this socially acceptable, and the norm.

Some people want to get married, some don't. You need to find person who does not want marriage as it is pretty cruel if a person has to let go of a dream they have had for long (it can be a big value to get married). Just like I don't (want to) date people who want kids as I don't want children: that would be highly incompatible match and at least one party would suffer a lot in the end. Don't disagree

Imo people should consider why they want/don't want to get married. What is the real issue/thing there?

As what marriage is and what it means depends a LOT on the couple. I'm atheist and for me it has originally been just a legal contract. But I'm also into transition ceremonies that celebrate life, so marriage/commitment ceremony holds value in that way to me also. Those ceremonies help me put my head around changes that happen in life.

I got married as I wanted to look after my SO even after my death: that they would have roof on top of their head, and no need to worry about money as that is the last thing they want to do after just loosing their partner. Of course I have prenup in case marriage ends in divorce. Then there is all sort of tax benefits and so on but not going into them.

Yes, you can testament your wealth but: legal system here gives my family a possibility to start arguing about my fortune in court if I die -even I would have a testament. They would loose eventually but I wanted to make sure there is no possibility for any extra stress in case of my death. My family are good people but people can also go bit crazy if they loose a loved one.

So if I understand this correctly its not just the ceremony that maters. It is legal impact that you appreciate? Could that be accomplished by insurable interests and a specific life policy that would cover those without the need for an additional legal documents managed by a government to redistribute previously earned wealth and holdings?

"Mitigating negative outside influences, and addressing those that claim abuse"

Small sidenote: I came cross term "warrior princess submissive" not too long ago. While looking into it found text from someone about how that consept can be the saving grace for BDSM if the media starts witch hunt aganst it. For then you would have these "warrior princesses" who kick ass in 'real life' and are like the absolute opposite of oppressed doormat who is abused into silence, so counter story. I think it was an interesting idea -even to me it seems that BDSM is getting quite main stream and the risk that anything too terrible would happen is slight. - Interesting but I could also see this narrative being manipulated as man oppresses and abuses successful and strong woman.

March 10, 2018

I think when it comes to stigmas against movements, it's the same every time. There's always one or two muppets who ruin it for everyone else, which can create a stigma because it's always the idiots who get the attention. That said, I too am glad OP chose to post on a more controversial topic as the responses have all been respectful and insightful.

Agree wholeheartedly. It is usually one very loud opinion that reverberates throughout an entire movement when it should have been addressed and discontinued immediately. That is where a republic comes into consideration vs. a dictatorship or socialists agenda. The voice of the people needs to be considered vs the voice of one. Obviously in politics those that have the most persuasion and are best articulated win over the masses. Have you ever notices how certain people address populations/crowds? There is a specific technique to such persuasion.

March 11, 2018

(doing the same thing I did with Senate's response for ease)

1. Happy to be here! I love constructive conversations.

2. I am also not an expert on MGTOW, I just read a couple of pages from their website and disagreed with a lot of it. Some of it seems fine to me, I just didn't like that weird sexist vibe I got from a lot of it. To quote Senate "womens rights are not inherently anti men and that mens rights are not inherently anti women", though I feel like MGTOW is pretty anti-women, so I disagree with their stance.

3. I actually debated leaving that point in or not, but I decided to keep it because I know way more women who walk around with pepper spray than men do, so I consider it more of an issue for women but not exclusively an issue for women.

Technically you could say all of my points were "taking sides", but the difference is that I don't think we have to segregate ourselves into groups of "men vs women" in order to fix those issues. You don't have to be a feminist to believe in rights for women (and recognizing they don't have the same rights as men), and you don't have to be a MGTOW to believe in rights for men (and recognizing they don't have the same rights as women). We all have issues that need to be addressed and fixed, but I don't believe it's necessary to fix them by saying "I WANT RIGHTS IT'S YOUR FAULT I DON'T HAVE THOSE RIGHTS" etc.

4. I already addressed Senate's stance, and I agree with him, too! Did a quick google, and the correct term is "earnings gap", and I think that's fair. Still think it exists lol

NOTE: I didn't address these↓ in the original post because

I don't have much to say about them.

5. I think if you really don't want to get married, it's no different than a vanilla relationship. You don't have to be married to be in a committed relationship. As long as you're committed to each other, if you're not interested in marriage I think it's whatever. That being said, I do want to get married someday. It's convenient, expresses that you are committed to each other, and if you're not ever planning on breaking up I don't personally see why you wouldn't get married.

6. An equal relationship? Respect each other. I don't think there's much more to it. I assume you mean having two people in a relationship equal to each other. I can't say much on it because it's never been an issue that my partner and I have had to address.

7. I have no idea what you're talking about here. Do you mean women who falsely accuse men of abuse?

8. Again, I can't say much about this one. I haven't had much experience in it. Personally, I stopped using facebook and instagram and I'm trying to stop going on some other types of social media as well. I don't think it affects me or my partner, but we never used those to communicate anyways.

I guess I could talk about media? But it seems like a totally different subject. I don't care for news, I don't follow it much, but when I do it's from online sources that I think are pretty well-balanced between left and right. I could talk all day about media and how it's hurting our society, but I don't know if that's relevant. Also I don't have time lol

9. Well, my SO has a glock so that's one way.

10. Well, my SO has a glock so that's one way.

(just kidding. To be frank, I don't really... care? Like this isn't something that interests me. I can't just debate/discuss something that I've never thought about or researched before.)

11. I don't think that MGTOW should exist at all. It's kind of like how I said I didn't identify as a feminist because I disagree with some of their principles. I feel like people who disagree with some of the principles of MGTOW should stop associating themselves with this movement. The reason they say that "you shouldn't get married" is because the woman takes up too much time, right? And littles--many times--take up a lot of time and attention (Lord knows I do). I don't think that someone with that mindset can or should be involved with DDlg because to me, it seems like they don't respect women enough to even consider dating them, let alone being in an intimate relationship which requires a lot of work and respect for each other (some may say even more than in a vanilla relationship). Not saying everyone in the movement is like that, but from what I read about it, that's what they stand for, and I don't think people should be in the movement if they don't stand for that. They should find a different movement that aligns with their ideals more.

In short, no I don't think that MGTOW can exist with DDlg because the ideals with that movement do not align with some of the basic principles of DDlg. Maybe it can, but I don't know if it should.

Thanks for coming back to this after classes!

2. I don't like some of it either. I just used it as an example, and now some people have insight into a subsection of humanity that they didn't know about before.

3. Pepper spay will only make me angry. I have been in gas chambers, maced, shot, stabbed and all sorts of unpleasant things endured. That being said yes, I certainly keep bear spray in my truck because shooting my "Glock" aka handgun inside my car or truck will likely cause permeant hearing loss. I am a male and carry both. I am a firm believer in a fully armed society is a polite society.

4. I'm glad another point of view was heard and possibly accepted although doubt exists.

5. This is interesting to me because based on your opening statements and opinions marriage is irrelevant or "whatever". Now I'll disagree that marriage is convenient. I'm curious on why you believe that and why a government would promote such a thing unless it benefited them more than you? Surely you could have a ceremony professing love and commitment to each other without a legal document? If high school kids profess their love should they be married because they believe they will never break-up?

6. Cool. I think each relationship should be unique to those involved and respected by all parties involved.

7. I think my first post would address this and place the proper context. What I meant is how do you manage outside influences and protect your partner from harm? My initial example had to do with a neighbor that heard noises and called the police and then them arresting the male/boyfriend/husband in question. How would you address that situation and or prevent it?

8. Fair enough

9. I have... not a Glock but many others :-)

10. So when your SO has a barrel pointed straight at his head does it interest you then? If he dies at the hand of the "law" Is it acceptable to engage in that conversation at that point? Do you think people aren't killed by the US government everyday for no reason besides a statement of "I feared for my life by such law enforcement"?

11. Awesome. How do we go about ending political parties, social opposition, sides, race, inequality...?

March 11, 2018

I’m not sure if it’s totally relevant but there was the He for She campaign that aimed at raising rights and improving things for men to get better equality for women too. I’m not sure if it is right to post this here but I thought it might be related and could interest someone

Great. What do you see as unequal?

March 11, 2018

Maybe bit offtopic but here it goes....

"Maintaining a long term DDLG relationship without marriage and how to do so."

I don't really see the issue with this? Marriage is not some needed part of relationship progession. I agree, I want to know how to address such things and how to make this socially acceptable, and the norm.

***

Depends probably where you live. In my country I think it is acceptable not to get married, sometimes even close to a norm. There are of course questions from old aunts and such What is important is to realise why one wants or does not want marriage, so then those things can be worked around, imo. If people disguss these reasons publicly, it will lead into more accepting, understanding and tolerating society. And of course examples are needed.

I actually had sort of opposite way of showing example: some of my friends were not into getting married but as I got married and explained why, they got into it also. So, the norm was not to get married as that was old fashioned and like dead institution. But with logic they saw more benefits in it than downsides (were based on my country's law).

----
So if I understand this correctly its not just the ceremony that maters. It is legal impact that you appreciate? Could that be accomplished by insurable interests and a specific life policy that would cover those without the need for an additional legal documents managed by a government to redistribute previously earned wealth and holdings?

My personal reasons for marriage were legal, yes. It depends on your legal system but here just doing legal papers can mean tons of hassle and fighting in court if people want to claim that those papers are not okay, they are unfair or something, so I did not want to risk it. I wanted to make things as easy as possible for my SO.

Most of the legal stuff can be done with just other paperwork of course but the posible court hassle and tax benefits were something I did take into consideretion (heritance tax here is smaller if you are marrid than if you are not for example). Also, being married means that your spouse can use your account if needed immediately (this again may depend on where you live). Medical decisions can be done by your spouse with less hassle and so on. But all these are specific on what laws you have.....

( One of my friends got married with huge rush as they got into trouble after her living partner got really sick and she was forbidden to even see him or do medical decisions for him as his family hated her. And these two were lawyers havng all sorts of paper work there. But society can be old fashioned and it takes time to proof your rights and paper work. )

Other reason was the ritual, even I admit really understanding it AFTER getting married. Before it was more like intellectual idea but after getting married I could see how easy the mental change was and how it calmed me down a lot (I used to be those who panic every once in a while that was the rel what I wanted and was it enought andandand... sort of commitment fobia. But when I actually made the decision to commit and in ritualic way expressed my choice, all that panic was just gone for good.)

These are just my views and other people may have different reasons wanting marriage. In most cases there is some workarounds: maybe commitment ceremony and/or the legal paper work to get to somewhat similar position as with marriage. But in most places marriage still holds many convinient benefits, and makes life easier.

Also why not get married? There are prenups etc that are workarounds to the other direction. And weddings are not decessary to get married if one fears those. Getting divorce anyhow is not hard in most places anymore.

But these are questions to disguss and maybe compromise with your partner, Should not be anyone elses bussiness whether you are married or not.

"Mitigating negative outside influences, and addressing those that claim abuse"

Small sidenote: I came cross term "warrior princess submissive" not too long ago. While looking into it found text from someone about how that consept can be the saving grace for BDSM if the media starts witch hunt aganst it. For then you would have these "warrior princesses" who kick ass in 'real life' and are like the absolute opposite of oppressed doormat who is abused into silence, so counter story. I think it was an interesting idea -even to me it seems that BDSM is getting quite main stream and the risk that anything too terrible would happen is slight. - Interesting but I could also see this narrative being manipulated as man oppresses and abuses successful and strong woman.

True.

Edit: few tupos even sure there is more >_>

Edited March 11, 2018 by baby_k

March 11, 2018

Edit: few tupos even sure there is more >_>

Thank you for the insight to your choices, countries regulations, and cause and effect of those decisions.

I often see marriage as a huge benefit and therefore convenient relationship to a woman in todays society, even going back hundreds of years. I guess what I am curious about is where the dividing line is between love, lust, and prosperity? Can women today see past such social stigmas and truly become equal in financial obligations and terms? Why would only a man be responsible to make sure a roof is left over someone else's head if/when they die? Why create a situation where someone would benefit from someones death? That personally makes me uncomfortable.

I feel like when there is something financially to gain, the relationship no longer becomes a meeting of the minds, rather a financial vested interest.

March 11, 2018

Thank you for the insight to your choices, countries regulations, and cause and effect of those decisions.

I often see marriage as a huge benefit and therefore convenient relationship to a woman in todays society, even going back hundreds of years. I guess what I am curious about is where the dividing line is between love, lust, and prosperity? Can women today see past such social stigmas and truly become equal in financial obligations and terms? Why would only a man be responsible to make sure a roof is left over someone else's head if/when they die? Why create a situation where someone would benefit from someones death? That personally makes me uncomfortable.

I feel like when there is something financially to gain, the relationship no longer becomes a meeting of the minds, rather a financial vested interest.

Well, I'm a woman and the breadwinner, so... in my case it is the woman making sure man has roof on top of them. And food in fridge.

For me it is just about over all need to look after my partners, and do my best so that they have nice comfortable life. Mostly it is other kind of support and companionship but it includes the financial aspect also of course. I don't think these have anything to do with gender. Just that I have chosen profession where I get decent pay and therefore I'm in position to make my partners life easier in many cases. And that is what I want to do.

And benefitting from ones death: having your SO die is a hugehuge thing. I can't even imagine how terrible it would be. Money is not something people probably think then. And I don't want my SO to need to worry how he is going to pay the bills or does he have to go to work: if they need to take break from work because of the emotional stuff they are dealing with then, I want to be able to provide that to them. +I do think I know my partner enough to know that they are with me for other than monetary reasons

March 11, 2018

Well, I'm a woman and the breadwinner, so... in my case it is the woman making sure man has roof on top of them. And food in fridge.

For me it is just about over all need to look after my partners, and do my best so that they have nice comfortable life. Mostly it is other kind of support and companionship but it includes the financial aspect also of course. I don't think these have anything to do with gender. Just that I have chosen profession where I get decent pay and therefore I'm in position to make my partners life easier in many cases. And that is what I want to do.

And benefitting from ones death: having your SO die is a hugehuge thing. I can't even imagine how terrible it would be. Money is not something people probably think then. And I don't want my SO to need to worry how he is going to pay the bills or does he have to go to work: if they need to take break from work because of the emotional stuff they are dealing with then, I want to be able to provide that to them. +I do think I know my partner enough to know that they are with me for other than monetary reason

Well. Good on me for not assuming you were a male? Bad on me for not assuming or asking if you were a breadwinner?

Awesome insight either way and I appreciate it!!!!

Lets call all things equal. Wether your parter wanted to be supported if you were alive or not, or not supported at all. Is there a financial point where they would benefit from your death? I understand that what you have is an accepted relationship, and my point is not directed specifically at your relationship because I'm sure we call all agree there are "golddiggers" out there. My question is, does a point exist where a breadwinner should be worried about the amount of financial support provided either in life or after death? When should breadwinners be concerned about their partners intentions? Can marriage or lack their of avoid those concerns?

March 11, 2018

@letsgoforanadventure

I'm curious, why are u concerned about marriage and inheritance? What's the context of the relationship? Are we assuming it's a happy healthy marriage, is there a suspicion that the SO is a gold digger, are there organizations or other persons, friends, family members who you would prefer receive the inheritance?

As far as your questions, a breadwinner should be concerned about their partner's intention upon meeting and until trust is established. Marriage or lack of shouldn't have any bearing on those concerns because those concerns should be addressed prior to even considering marriage. Worrying about the amount of financial support during life and after should be discussed. If my daddy wanted me to stay home and see to his needs instead of working, I would expect that if something happened to him, I would be cared for. If I were allowed to work, I wouldn't need to rely on a Daddy during the relationship so I wouldn't expect anything from daddy upon passing, except that he have the foresight to prepare for end of life expenses.

March 11, 2018

Thanks for coming back to this after classes!

2. I don't like some of it either. I just used it as an example, and now some people have insight into a subsection of humanity that they didn't know about before.

3. Pepper spay will only make me angry. I have been in gas chambers, maced, shot, stabbed and all sorts of unpleasant things endured. That being said yes, I certainly keep bear spray in my truck because shooting my "Glock" aka handgun inside my car or truck will likely cause permeant hearing loss. I am a male and carry both. I am a firm believer in a fully armed society is a polite society.

4. I'm glad another point of view was heard and possibly accepted although doubt exists.

5. This is interesting to me because based on your opening statements and opinions marriage is irrelevant or "whatever". Now I'll disagree that marriage is convenient. I'm curious on why you believe that and why a government would promote such a thing unless it benefited them more than you? Surely you could have a ceremony professing love and commitment to each other without a legal document? If high school kids profess their love should they be married because they believe they will never break-up?

6. Cool. I think each relationship should be unique to those involved and respected by all parties involved.

7. I think my first post would address this and place the proper context. What I meant is how do you manage outside influences and protect your partner from harm? My initial example had to do with a neighbor that heard noises and called the police and then them arresting the male/boyfriend/husband in question. How would you address that situation and or prevent it?

8. Fair enough

9. I have... not a Glock but many others :-)

10. So when your SO has a barrel pointed straight at his head does it interest you then? If he dies at the hand of the "law" Is it acceptable to engage in that conversation at that point? Do you think people aren't killed by the US government everyday for no reason besides a statement of "I feared for my life by such law enforcement"?

11. Awesome. How do we go about ending political parties, social opposition, sides, race, inequality...?

3. I never said a man couldn't carry something to protect themselves, I even gave the example with my SO. Most of the time you see women doing things to protect themselves more than men. I'm not arguing about whether or not pepper spray is effective, but I would say with my pool of data (in college) I know maybe for every 15-20 women, there's 1 man who has a form of self-defense. We can't carry guns on campus anyways.

5. It's convenient because of the whole "transfer of wealth" thing (I think you were the one that said it?). If my boyfriend gets critically injured and I show up to the hospital, I may not be allowed to see him, but if he's my husband, they will let me see him. There's a few examples like that. Health insurance (this is the big one imo), kids having the same last name (someone in my family always has to explain why her last name is different than her son's and it's a pain), some couples get a break on their taxes (but some get the opposite so there's that), retirement benefits, etc. There's a lot of reasons to get legally married.

10. Woah man, you went from 0 to 100 real fast. I wasn't avoiding conversation, I just don't think about it because--although I realize it's a problem--it's a few bad eggs, not the majority of police. I actually am really close with a few people who are training to be police officers, they are not inherently bad people. They just want to get out of those situations alive so they can see their families again. I don't think that the government itself is abusive. Again, yes, there are some bad eggs, and there are people who have made unforgivable split-second decisions, but I'm not one to call them "the law", because they're the minority. You seem to have a "the government is out to get you" attitude, which I really don't have, so I doubt we'll find common ground on this issue.

11. There's lots of ways. Being part of a group--unless you're actively marching and writing letters to the government--still isn't going to do anything. You could go the Morgan Freeman route: "stop talking about it". You could write your own independent letters to senators and congressmen. You could find a group that you fully support and believe in. You can even do the opposite of Morgan Freeman and constantly talk about it, sharing facts and getting people to think about their actions.

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