Discipline, reinforcement and punishments

[DaddyJ]

Hi all,

 

I've been having a conversation about discipline and thought it might be interesting to post on the topic.

 

As caregivers we set out rules, rewards and punishments. Of course people respond differently to these things and build their particular dynamic accordingly.

 

In casual conversation we sometimes mix up 'punishment' with 'negative reinforcement' although they are different. Anyway, in practice it can be surprisingly difficult to say if a scenario is positive or negative reinforcement (or even a punishment).

 

Here is how I understand these terms:
 

• Positive reinforcement - perform desired action to receive preferred result (desired action increases over time). 
  Example: given praise and gold star on their task chart for doing homework
   
• Negative reinforcement - perform desired action to avoid non-preferred result (desired action increases over time). 
  Example: allowed to skip one day if homework is done well all week (that is they are not keen on homework but will do it some days to avoid it another day)
   
• Punishment - result of undesired action (undesired action decreases over time). 
  Example: given early bed time for deliberately not doing homework

 

Generally speaking as a Daddy Dom my preference is always for positive reinforcement. Partly because I want to be nurturing and rewards are often motivating (and as a caregiver enjoyable to give). Also because these can be good bonding experiences. I think punishments should be balanced with positive reinforcement. 

 

When a punishment is necessary, it's best to start harsh (aim for appropriate but err on the side of harsh), rather than start mild then escalate. If the punishment isn't pitched at the right level, it's possible to tolerate the mild punishment while continuing the unwanted behaviour and also could grow resentment for drawing out the process of change. To me a real punishment (distinct from a 'FUN-ishment') isn't enjoyable for either person. Last, if punishments are frequent I would be tempted to take it as a sign of some underlying problem that needs to be addressed (but I guess that really depends).

 

I'd be curious to read what you think about these issues, would you agree or disagree with my thinking?

 

I'd also be very interested if this prompts any examples of what you've found effective (or not effective)?

 

:-)

 

[Guest Looby-Lou]

I really liked your comment about punishments - the effective use of them, and the intensity. I hadn't thought of it that way before. It’s very thought-provoking. Thank you!

Personally I don't respond well to harsh punishment so a milder punishment, more of a "warning" level, is enough for me. I’d be more likely to associate a harsh punishment with the DD himself rather than with the behaviour he wanted to stop, so it could be counter productive IFYSWIM.

 

This is a very old thread but it caught my attention. I'm passionate about animals and training. In animal training we also use positive and negative punishment and reinforcement.

Yep, positive punishment is a thing. And negative reinforcement is a thing.

 

This topic intrigues me because I'm fascinated by psychology & behaviour, but it seems your thread didn't generate much interest on the forum. Anyway...for anyone whose interested, the theories in animal training can also translate to human behaviour.

 

It doesn't matter if you don't get the +ve and -ve thing.

But it might help you to observe...

- does your little respond best to punishment or reward?

- does your little respond best to you doing a nice thing OR stopping a horrible thing?

 

That's it in a nutshell, but for anyone who wants more detail...

 

ANY punishment is designed to decrease the frequency of a behaviour (for example decrease how often a little talks back)

 

ANY reinforcement is designed to increase ​the frequency of a behaviour (for example increase how often a little finishes her meal)

 

The words positive and negative don't have their usual meanings of good/bad or nice/horrible. Quite simply...

Anything positive​ is something added to the environment and anything negative is something removed from the environment.

​If you want to increase the behaviour you add something pleasurable or you remove something unpleasant

if you want to decrease the behaviour you add something unpleasant or you remove something pleasant.

 

It's confusing but if you forget the terminology you're probably doing these things anyway, just naturally.

 

So

a positive punishment could be a smack to discourage your little from talking back.

a negative punishment could be withdrawing a stuffie for the day to discourage talking back.

 

a positive reinforcement could be a sticker on her reward chart to encourage her to finish meals

a negative reinforcement could be removing a physical restraint e.g. handcuffs as a reward for finishing her meal (which you had to feed her being as she was in handcuffs, not really the best example as it could be fun LMAO)

 

Some of us respond better to reward, and others to punishment. Some respond better to positive or negative reinforcements. It's all about individual personality and previous life experience.

 

Just a few thoughts for anyone that managed to stay awake...

 

Looby

sorry i had to edit this so many times, the colours kept going wrong...i'm in the Caregiver section but i'm only little and my colours sometimes run away from me. Plus one of my kitties was being naughty and distracted me...she needs some more training obviously...

Edited June 2, 2019 by Looby-Lou

[LittleTeacup]

I strive to be a good girl so I want positive reinforcement. Praise, cuddles, stickers on the sticker chart. Praise is the best for me since I have a huge thing for praise.

 

If I make a mistake I would want my caregiver to be gentle and discuss with me what went wrong. I have flaws like everyone and I'd rather be encouraged to improve than punished for it. If I'm cranky and get a little bit bratty being told I'm not being very good would probably be enough.

 

Time outs might be necessary if I get too overexcited and bounce off the walls. I'd be so upset over not being good for my caregiver I think that'd be a harsh enough punishment for me.

 

I'm not really too big on the rules thing anyway though. A few geared towards my health/well being are good, but I mostly just want a nurturing caregiver who I feel safe around and likes me being cute and wants to help me grow and gain confidence. Too many rules might be bad for my mental health since I'd feel awful if I broke any.

[Guest Looby-Lou]

I'm very similar to you LittleTeacup. I thrive on pleasing and respond to approval. If my Daddy was disappointed in me that would be enough to make me feel punished and want to stop the behaviour.

 

Of course a DD has to be able to discipline when he deems it necessary and i would accept that...and a small punishment, let's call it a "reprimand" would be effective with me.

I'll modify my behaviour to receive praise, but harsh punishment just makes me "switch off". It doesn't do much to change my actual behaviour.

 

I've never had a proper Daddy or rules, so I don't know. I think I'd like to have Daddy's approval or correction for everything, but not too many actual rules. Maybe better for me to have guidelines - with a general agreement that i ask permission before doing things, rather than too many hard rules.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Looby

P.S. i was nervous about resurrecting an old thread that was empty (no replies) so THANK YOU for sharing your thoughts. now i feel so happy that i was brave enough to pick up this old thread

....you could even say your reply has acted as +ve reinforcement

Edited June 4, 2019 by Looby-Lou